11-01-2003 22:20									#31
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Yes, but given they agreed to the in-game deal, we have:

- either to reject the offer, putting Bronze Working back on 100% (it would not be justified to wait longer)
- or to accept it, in which case we can switch to Alphabet at 100%.

Note however, that if we reject it, there will hardly be another deal, at least in the near future. They want a promise, we currently are saying "we don't intend to attack you, but we can't promise it". If they agree on this, fine, but I doubt they will. We could try it, ok. But I still don't know what to do (which if the options above I shall choose) if the turn comes to us, and that is what this thread is about.

	11-01-2003 22:34									#32
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Message posted, received, and BetaHound sent a very quick note back that it's under discussion. (It looks like BetaHound has automatic notification of PMs on now.)

Nathan

	11-01-2003 22:44									#33
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Sir Ralph, I've asked them to include you on their reply, so if they give a clear yes or no, our course of action should be clear. If they come back with anything complicated, hopefully, we'll get the save late enough that either I'll be back up again or waiting for me won't cause problems. (I just checked the turn thread and Dissident was last to post there.)

Nathan

	11-01-2003 22:45									#34
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Sir Ralph: my idea is that you should accept the deal should it come, not depending of their acceptance already. Start on alphabet immediately.

We asked for a 2 tier deal, and I still value that proposal. But, it really is time to show them good will, so lets go ahead with the less beneficial trade now, and ask for the more expensive on later on. All tension will not be resolved in the next few turns, and we can't hold forever. We can have alphabet ready, and be on our way to mapmaking or literature when they decide to share IW with us... plus, I'm sure some kind of promise or deal of non-aggression can be worked out, once the pressure is a bit off...

And if it would fail, I still don't mind to trade the wheel for BW. With each tech they gain, it will become harder to research something on their own, as costs go up. as much as possible, we should make a world wide attempt to get those cheap techs distributed asap, as we are the ones who will for the longest time be able to keep up in research spending. Vox, without river, and with poor land, is not going to research much the coming years anyway, not if it takes them over 20 turns to complete the smallest tech.

DeepO

	11-01-2003 22:52									#35
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If we research Alphabet without a promise of Iron Working in return, we leave a window where they could very likely attack us with immortals if they want to and we'd have a very hard time defending ourselves. And frankly, I also don't like the idea of rewarding them for rejecting our two-stage offer by giving them a trade that's clearly in their favor instead.

Nathan

	11-01-2003 23:48									#36
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Those Vox keep suprising us, don't they? they twist and turn so we can't get a proper view on their intentions. They clearly don't trust us anymore than we trust them as they have fears that they are trading away valuable mil. tech, for peacetime ones, despite the fact that they realize that without tech trades they are out of the tech race for sure.

I also like to remind you- don't let pity or you need for poetic justice to be made affect your judgement, cracks in the Voxian wall of extroverted toughness are beginning to appear- we must not have idea of giving them things which they didn't ask for and seem right for us- like withdrawing, just because they have accpeted a fair trade offer. We must use delay tactics in our conflict over the lands south of the Isthmus, stall for as long as possible (as they did with us, deliberately or not, it doesn't matter), while we take advantage of our growing economy to make Vox have to accept the facts- that we grow faster than them that we will seize the prime spots on this continents, and that they won't have an easy strawl just because they had some bad luck with their starting position.

But we must remember to always have an option for them besides confclict, if we push them to the corner- we are into a hell of a fight- if they have nothing to lose, they will fight to the death, and we will take a beating along with their demise. I am talking about trades like the one we are about to strike, and some promise of peaceful coexistence- with hints on us being more forgiving if they settle along the isthmus- but only to some extent, as our interest are clear on this matter (I think, and hope).

	12-01-2003 02:36									#37
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Turn is here. Tim has been withdrawn north. Willy disappeared, most likely went north too. VC offers Bronze Working for The Wheel, but failed to "accept" the deal. So if we accept it, it still takes their turn to acknowledge the deal. That means, they still could refuse it. That's pure theory, I doubt they will, but anyway.

EotS grew to size 4 and after we set the laborers as intended (3 irrigated floodplains + 1 irrigated fur), it will grow again in 2 turns. Hurricane will be switched to the free irrigated fur tile. A check moving Gronk out-in EotS shows, that we have 4 content citizens without any MP, hence the difficulty dropped to Chieftain indeed. I propose to withdraw Grog 3 and Slash 2. So it doesn't look like a blockade.

Proposal on warrior move:
Hack follows Tim north (8). So does Ouch with Willy (9). Crush goes back to Hurricane. There will be a new warrior ready next turn, who will move to EotS in order to babysit the settler.

Economic changes as described. Don't know, what to do with the half-ready deal and with research.

Where are my advisors?

	12-01-2003 02:44									#38
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Regarding the deal, can't we just switch to alphabet and get this over with? If we finish Alphabet and there still won't be any sign of an end to this, we can research BW ourselves.
Vox wants to stall our research, and they're using their now-standard delaying tactics. Let's not let them use us.

	12-01-2003 02:46									#39
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Edit: nevermind.

Last edited by Shiber on 12-01-2003 at 03:11

	12-01-2003 03:50									#40
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Agreed, accept the deal and let's get on with it.

	12-01-2003 04:28									#41
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Team scores:

59 (+1) Gathering Storm
68 (+2) Demogyptica
60 (0) Glory of War
64 (+1) Role Play
58 (0) Vox Controli
52 (0) Lux Invicta
65 (+2) Legoland

	12-01-2003 04:32									#42
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As for the tech deal- Agreed. But on the warriors issue- we have no reason to withdraw our incomplete blockade, we don't block them anyway. If they want to pass, let them ask for it (we have stopped exploring a long while ago, so we actually honor their request to stop exploring), then we will take our time, tell them that our diplomat has gone fishing (much like when BetaHound was "tired"...) and the like, if they seem agitated than we can withdraw, and have that the 2-tile wide grassland our temporary border.

	12-01-2003 04:35									#43
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Ok, let's show good will and trust them. Trade deal accepted and sent back. Eli and Dissident will be PMd and reminded to accept the deal. Research set to Alphabet at 100%.

Movement:
Grog moves 3, Slash 2. Since they withdraw, we show goodwill as well. Hack follows Tim 8, and Ouch follows Willy 9. Crush goes 2, back to Hurricane.

Economy:
EotS grows to size 4. 3 citizens on irrigated floodplain, 1 on irrigated fur plain, next growth in 2 turns, but currently only 3 shields per turn. Laborer in Hurricane switched to the other irrigated fur plain. Worker finished irrigation and starts road.

Power has gone again in their favor, 2nd turn in a row. Screenshots will include zoom, power, F11 and the EotS city view.

Everyone happy? I hope so, I want to go to bed.

	12-01-2003 04:43									#44
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I think withdrawing Slash and Grog was a mistake, i have stated that we pose no real threat, or put a blockade for that matter, we have no reason to withdraw, except implying that we already recognize that territory as Voxian- which is wrong IMHO- our war (if there will be one) will revolve around land, and every square inch counts. Every grassland tile is a blessing for the Voxians, who seem to be low on food (or so we think).

	12-01-2003 04:45									#45
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Zeit: We will leave one warrior there around, the other goes back to another outlook. No reason to keep up an anyway incomplete blockade.

Turn done, will be sent shortly.

	12-01-2003 04:49									#46
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By the way, this issue can still be discussed. All we did so far, is showing a little bit goodwill, just like they did. We can still go back or even put up a blockade, if they decline the trade deal.

	12-01-2003 04:59									#47
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I have no problem with backing up, when the time is right, if we bring up the troops again if the deal is blown, then we act like bullies, it's not that critical, but i still don't trust the Voxians. Withrawing to form a real blockade is fine by me, but please= don't leave only one warrior standing there, this is by all means too dangerous- have you seen Vox evacuate the Isthmus- no. So why should we clear the blockade by leaving only one warrior on the lookout?

	12-01-2003 05:17									#48
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Turn sent. So are screenshots.

Zeit: This thread has been up a day now, with the withdrawal issue marked as urgent question. There have been several opinions in this argument, but finally the suggestion to leave observers at critical points (but not too close) and to suggest Vox to leave observers too, won the debate.

It is not my job to meet this decision, but since our military leaders are absent, I take it for them. And please understand, that I can't always spend hours on a single turn, only because we discuss in the turn time matters, that should have be discussed long ago (and in fact, have been discussed).

	12-01-2003 05:48									#49
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Zeit, I'm with Sir Ralph here. As one of the members who said that we need to show some serious good will, this can only help. I will object if it jeopardizes our safety, so their two scouts should be shadowed, defending EotS by their passive presence close to the scouts.

Re: screenies: F11 shows that Legopolis is on top, while we have more population, the only possible reason I see for that is that they built a temple. We should mark 2590 BC, as it is most likely the beginning of the cultural race. No worries yet though, they are more then likely too far away.

power graph: I'm a bit worried by the bump in Vox's power. If you compare it with the bump we had with our 100% cash (11 gold?) a few turns back, it looks very similar for two turns in a row. But, we made money this turn too, so it is in no way possible that Vox made double the amount of us. Only deduction possible is that they build another unit, most likely a regular spear (as a warrior wouldn't bump the graph compared to our gold) while they had science to 100%, or a warrior and their gold to 100%. If this is true, it should make them equally powerful military as us, so Sir Ralph, could you look to the F3 screen, and tell us what the advisor is saying?

I'm not sure what to think of it. I hope that it is a spear they built, and not a warrior, hoping to upgrade him later on. If so, they are saving cash. But I would never spend 40 gold on a reg immortal, when I could get vets instead.

Last, remote possibility: they sold something to Civ X, and got cash in return.

DeepO

	12-01-2003 06:02									#50
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F3 says average.

	12-01-2003 06:09									#51
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[vox]
Ok, we need more time, let's tell then we will pull our warriors back, they need to be upgraded anyway.
In the mean build a few roads save some money, have their units back off a few tiles. The less warnig they have the better, the more chance our surprise attack will have to succeed.
[/vox]

	12-01-2003 06:20									#52
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[vox]
Damn... only a tiny problem. we need a lot more cash. every regular (!) immortal is going to take 40 gold, which at the current rate we need 5 turns to gather. If we want any decent force to impress instead of annoy GS, we will have to be on 0 research for the next 50 turns...
[/vox]



DeepO

	12-01-2003 06:21									#53
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[vox]
Oh, and has anyone found time yet to build a barracks in that capital of ours?
[/vox]

DeepO

	12-01-2003 06:34									#54
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Sir Ralph, I can't even begin to understand your reasoning process in your decision this turn. It was only what, one or two turns ago that you kept lecturing me on how we have to survive before Alphabet can do us any good? Yet here you are, switching us away from a military tech to a peaceful one and guaranteeing that we'll lose a bunch of gold if we switch back without a promise from Vox that the trade deal will go through.

Worse, you've made a joke out of my telling Vox that if they reject our offer, it will be Alphabet, not Iron Working, that gets delayed so seriously. (Or at least thrown away a turn or two of gold, depending on whether they accept the first part of the deal, if we make my words true.) I thought you didn't trust Vox, yet now you're trusting Vox to do something they haven't even fully agreed to yet.

Could you please explain this big turn-around in how much of a threat you seem to view Vox as?

Nathan

	12-01-2003 06:34									#55
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[vox]
It takes 12-15 turns for our warriors to get back, chopping will help the new city to barracks.

How much gold do we make from those past and present trade deals to civx?
[/vox]

	12-01-2003 06:35									#56
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Woah, Nathan! Please calm down...

DeepO

	12-01-2003 06:44									#57
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So what would you have suggested me to do? Wait one more turn? Reject the deal and crank up Bronze to 100%? And where the heck have you been when I asked for your advice hours before I sent the turn?

I'm beginning to get sick of all this. Who wants to do my job, go ahead!

	12-01-2003 06:47									#58
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Come on, guys, lets keep it friendly. It is not the discussion that is the issue here, we're all friends with common interests, and not kids that fight over a candy bar.

You both had tremendous impact on how we got so far, there is no reason to destroy that. I understand that everyone thinks his opinion is the only truth, but so far it has been going smooth, please let us keep that spirit.

DeepO

	12-01-2003 07:24									#59
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Wow, what happened here ???

This is just a game, people.
Let's have some good discusions/debates, but there's no need to fight!

	12-01-2003 07:35									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph So what would you have suggested me to do? Wait one more turn? Reject the deal and crank up Bronze to 100%? And where the heck have you been when I asked for your advice hours before I sent the turn? I'm beginning to get sick of all this. Who wants to do my job, go ahead!

Sir Ralph, I understand that yours is a difficult job, but mine is too with the extra duties I've taken on. I didn't actually get to sleep "for the night" until after noon today my time thanks to trying to get the message to Vox tweaked to the team's satisfaction. I'm normally a "night owl" in my hours anyhow, but that's getting a bit ridiculous even for me, even with my having gotten a bit of a nap earlier. By that point, I just didn't have it in me to go through complex analysis to plan for every contingency.

What I wish you'd done (and tried to suggest you do if Vox's response was something complex, although I hadn't expected their response to be silence) was wait. That would have given Vox more time to respond and me time to wake up and get involved in the decision. Even if it would have meant putting the game on hold while you got your night's sleep, that wouldn't have killed us, and it would have given Vox still more time to respond.

I think in the future, if you're this short on input again (including no input at all from the scholia heads for the specific situation encountered), the best course of action would be to wait. With any luck at all, that would take a lot of the pressure off you to make a decision without adequate input, and it would give people who are sleeping or otherwise occupied by real life a chance to chip in before it's too late. That's doubly important at as critical a juncture as this one.

Nathan