11-01-2003 10:06									#1
	So Why Don't US Leaders Cut PAYROLL Taxes?! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I mean, wouldn't shaving a bit off the payroll taxes help people more than getting rid of the taxes on dividends for stockholders? C'mon! If I were to save $25 to $50 per check twice a month 12 months a year on payroll taxes, I'd have an extra $600 to $1200 to play around with! OTOH, I have only an option for 100 shares of my company's stock, so who the hell gives a damn about no taxes on dividend payments?

Give me a payroll tax cut, you damn politicians! Not SS or Medicare, straight FIT!!!

Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 10:08									#2
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What gives you the idea that the tax cut is for your common folk?

	11-01-2003 10:14									#3
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It wouldn't benefit the truly rich enough...

(there is little difference between "trickle down" and p*ssed on", just ask any fire hydrant)

	11-01-2003 10:17									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Gatekeeper, you're going to get it.

Remember what happened with the last tax cut. Republicans wanted to cut taxes for the rich. The Democrats wanted to cut taxes for the middle class. The Republicans subsumed the Democratic cuts into the own plan and took credit for everything.

Now that the Dems are proposing a payroll tax, the Republicans will again include that proposal into their own. Then the Dems either have to vote for the tax cuts for which the Republicans will take full credit, or the Dems will have to vote against everything, including their own proposed tax cuts, and look like the biggest scrooges of all time.

	11-01-2003 10:28									#5
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You're never going to see a payroll tax cut. The Dems are proposing a one-time "refund". The payroll tax is the one very few Americans pay attention to because it comes out automatically, before they see the full amount of their paycheck. And BTW Zkribbler, if the Democrats take $30000 from me and give me back $1000, explain how I'll get rich?

	11-01-2003 10:32									#6
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Well if they take $30,000 from you per year, you are prolly already rich.

	11-01-2003 10:48									#7
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Find out where the bastards put my Rolls Royce then Lawrence and I'll agree with you assessment.

	11-01-2003 10:51									#8
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I'd really rather have a payroll tax cut than any sort of "trickle-down" cut or a refund of a few hundred dollars. I would save approximately $26 a year under the former and the latter did give me a $300 check the last time ... but that's all much less than what I'd get with a cut in payroll taxes.

ZScribbler ... heh, gee, that sounds familiar. Brings back memories of 1992 and the Dems taking over a traditionally GOP platform — it's the economy, stupid!

Furthermore, why the hell do folks that make more than $70,000 a year or so not have to pay SS taxes on income over that amount? Good God! Some of the budget and economic issues the United States faces could be solved with common sense solutions like payroll tax cuts and making the "bigshots" pay SS on their *full* incomes, rather than only a part of it.

Viva la revolution!

Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 10:59									#9
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The people who make more than $70k a year are ALREADY subsidizing the lazy SOBs who aren't paying fully into SS Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 11:16									#10
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cia:

Well, yeah, I suppose the guy making $100,000 a year would be contributing more to SS than some poor SOB making, oh, $6.25 an hour/$15,000 a year.

Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 11:21									#11
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Anyways Gatekeeper, I'm just paying for my dad's retirement now. I'm not worried about it. I figure I'll get the Eskimo retirement package.

	11-01-2003 11:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by cia I figure I'll get the Eskimo retirement package.

A cold day in He11?

	11-01-2003 11:44									#13
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quote: Originally posted by cia The people who make more than $70k a year are ALREADY subsidizing the lazy SOBs who aren't paying fully into SS Gatekeeper

I'm in that category, and I do not object to aditional taxes.

Look you can go for the short term benefits and live in a world of an increasingly dysfunctional society, ot you can give up a little more now for a better society in a decade.

I know which I would prefer.

	11-01-2003 11:48									#14
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Close.

A parka, a day's supply of firewood, and a long trip into the tundra.

	11-01-2003 11:48									#15
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The Eskimo retirement:
Son: Dad, we found the perfect place for you out in the country!
Dad: Great! Let's go!
...Long car ride into snow country...
Dad, the road ends here but if you just keep heading north I know you'll find the retirement home.

	11-01-2003 11:51									#16
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The problem I have with Social Security cavebear is that we are giving out so much money now the situation is a pyramid scheme which either I or my children will be caught in. If I am currently paying for today's receipients and SS is not solvent, I don't see how it will improve over my lifetime with the death rate slowing.

	11-01-2003 11:52									#17
	Got spare money?

Because cutting payroll taxes would actually help the poor and middle class and stimulate economy. Why would the gov't possibly do that?

	11-01-2003 11:55									#18
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Plus if they cut payroll taxes people might see how much they actually pay instead of signing their return at H&R Block and going on their merry way. No way would the politicians get to jack up those again.

	11-01-2003 12:08									#19
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Gatekeeper,

the problem is that the payroll tax (Social Security) is supposedly an enforced savings plan. So sufficient funds have to be collected to pay for future liabilities.

It would be better if we admitted that social security is a welfare program. scrapped the tax. Scrapped social security except for people who are in a wlefare like status (and old), etc. Unfortunately that won't happen.

	11-01-2003 12:30									#20
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GP:

On my deposit notice, it breaks down the taxes into three categories (I don't have a state income tax or local municipality tax and I don't own land, so no state property tax):

1. FIT (Federal Income Tax)
2. SS (Social Security)
3. Medicare

They deduct "x" amount of dollars for each tax; what I'd like to see is a reduction in the FIT, not necessarily the SS or Medicare. Or doesn't the government break down its payroll tax collections? Is that breakdown just for our benefit and the taxes are just globbed together in the bureaurcracy?

Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 12:41									#21
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You are confused.

	11-01-2003 13:19									#22
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How so? I am looking at one of my deposit notices right now and it's divided into FIT and FICA. The former is the federal income tax, the latter a combination of SS and Medicare, no?

Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 22:05									#23
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I always wonder about people who talk about cutting payroll tax. How will we pay for SS, which is already in trouble? Unless, like GP says, we admit that the SS cannot be self contained (in a 'lockbox' to use Gore language ).

	11-01-2003 22:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How will we pay for SS, which is already in trouble?

That's why I find it strange to see Democrats advance the idea. I wonder what the reaction would be if the idea came from the other side.

	11-01-2003 22:27									#25
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It'd be 'Look the evil Republicans, trying to kill off SS' .

If Al Gore proposed Bush's tax cuts, Dems would be saying how fair it was compared to other cuts .

	11-01-2003 22:35									#26
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how about raising the retirement age?

	11-01-2003 22:41									#27
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Gatekeeper: Payroll taxes = FICA. Income taxes = FIT. That's how you're confused and contradicted yourself.

Payroll taxes are mostly a social insurance and pension program, not a welfare program. You are paying for your future benefit, so if you reduce your taxes on it, you are reducing your future potential benefit.

	11-01-2003 23:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel how about raising the retirement age?

The whole "SS is colla[psing" is based on the assumption that benefits remain the same, and kick in at the same age. By both lowering benefits and increasing the retirement age, SS is no longer "in crisis".

The problem is not the economics, but ideologies. Many opponents are simply opposed to SS on principle, and most mainstream politicans are too afraid to bite the political bullet that would follow raising the retirement age and cutting back benefits.

	11-01-2003 23:09									#29
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What's the retirement age in the US?

I know that in Israel, with the retirement age being at 65 for men, and 60 for women, The system is working rather well. Actually the government uses it as tax, it took some 35 billion shekels out of it a year ago.

	11-01-2003 23:11									#30
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65 for everyone. Touching that age would almost certainly mean political suicide.