15-01-2003 00:47									#91
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Hi Chris!

	15-01-2003 00:48									#92
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I don't know why people get off thinking life in prison is some benign consequence for a crime instead of the death penalty.

Prison is still prison. These murderers will still live with the constant threat of violence/rape for the rest of their lives, without parole, with other rapists and murderers.
They will live in an environment where their every move will be monitored and regulated. They will be treated like the subhuman slime they are for the rest of their life.

If the system is screwed up, death penalties shouldn't be allowed to continue while it's being "fixed". And prison for life is no Club Med in its place

	15-01-2003 00:50									#93
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*Ah-hem*

	15-01-2003 00:53									#94
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I made a slight error, the little girl wasn't 10, she was FOUR YEARS OLD

quote: 'A disgrace to the state of Illinois,' local man says -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Ed Pilolla STAFF WRITER They used to smile more, laugh more, talk a little more. They used to be the sort of people who thought it could never happen to them or someone they loved. But tragedy did strike them or someone they loved. And now they've changed ... forever. Now they hug people a little more, cry a little more, and think about the past much more. They are the victims who survived: Those who barely escaped death or those family members who received a phone call from police in the middle of the night. On Saturday, when Gov. George Ryan announced his decision to grant blanket clemency to all the state's death row inmates, the victims needed a distraction. Ryan's allowing convicted murderers on death row to live out their days was just too painful for some to think about. Robert Weides, whose son Jeff was one of two people killed by Luther V. "Luke" Casteel's gun blasts at JB's Pub in April 2001, put up some shelves in his house. Dino Calabrese, who was shot three times and barely escaped Casteel, watched football on TV. But they soon had to digest Ryan's decision, and when they did, the dark sorrow of experience ignited into rage. "Nothing is going to bring Jeff back," said Weides, who lives in Bartlett. "Every Christmas, every birthday, my son will always be in my heart ... This guy (Ryan), all he's doing is grandstanding, and all the world is applauding and that's driving me crazy." "I've been trying not to think about it," said Calabrese, who lives in the northwest suburbs. "I think it's just ridiculous." Jesse DePirro Jr., who was shot in the elbow by Casteel, characterized Ryan as "a foolish person who should have been gone a long time ago. Maybe he just doesn't understand what me and my family have gone through. Good riddance!" Casteel wasn't the only local on death row. Maurice A. King, 43, was convicted of murdering Carpentersville resident Lola Gooch and her 4-year-old daughter Alisha. King stabbed Alisha after he drowned her in a bathtub of scalding hot water on April 17, 1998. King told police he did it "for the thrill of it," police said at King's trial. Joseph Heinrich's 30-year-old sister was raped and then murdered along with her husband in their Chicago apartment in 1983. Their son was beaten and stabbed and left for dead, but he survived. Heinrich spent Saturday in the company of his extended family inside his Elgin house and made a point of watching Ryan's speech. "It wasn't possible to get our minds off of it," said Heinrich, a detective sergeant for the Geneva Police Department. "We didn't want to watch it. We felt we had to see this through to the end. We were looking for any kind of explanation." Like other victims, Heinrich said he didn't get an acceptable explanation from Ryan, either in the speech or in the form letter sent by the governor's office. "He's a walking contradiction," Heinrich said, "and a disgrace to the state of Illinois."

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/.../e12sidebar.htm

Yeah, you "humanitarians" are beautiful.

Never give a rat's behind for the victims.

	15-01-2003 00:55									#96
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Tell me more about how "It's the right thing to do".

I won't go further, too angry at some of you just now.

	15-01-2003 01:29									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 And yet another idiot thinks he is above the will of the people. That moron should be impeached. Democracy is a joke in Il.

Concur. THat was what the Journal thought too. Was an editorial on it today.

	15-01-2003 03:53									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Yeah, you "humanitarians" are beautiful. Never give a rat's behind for the victims.

The victims are already dead, Chris. They are beyond our help.

As for the families, it is a falsehood that only the execution of the murderer can bring peace and closure to their lives. They alone have that ability; retribution can not do it for them.

You're allowing your emotions to rule in a debate about politics and justice. You're smart enough to know that emotions really shouldn't apply.

	15-01-2003 05:19									#99
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I'm against the death penalty on the grounds that errors cannot be corrected. If I believed that the courts always got it right, I would support death by torture.

And if I was a relative of the murdered, I would do everything I could to see that the true murderer died as painful of a death as possible. I can't stomach the thought that people out there are paying taxes that feed the person that murdered their loved ones. Disgusting, pure and simple.

	15-01-2003 05:25									#100
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Wouldn't impeachment be a bit impractical, considering that he acted fully within his powers?

	15-01-2003 05:28									#101
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I understand how some people are against the death penalty in practice because of the social inequalities in the justice system, but I'm sorry, if you murder someone, you should be put to sleep.

	15-01-2003 06:27									#102
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I would support a constitutional amendment banning the DP.

If people like Hinkley, Squeaky Fromme, Sirhan Sirhan and OJ can avoid the death sentence even though they were captured red handed and/or they were as guilty as sin, I believe than no one should receive it. We focus a lot more on mistakes where the innocent are put to death. We should also focus on the fact that the rich and famous, or those who can afford or are provided good lawyers seem to get off. How can we execute Joe robber when we don't execute Sirhan Sirhan or Hinkley or OJ?

It is a travesty to execute an innocent man. It is also a travesty to execute anyone when others who have better lawyers are not executed.

Moreover, the deterent value of the DP is severely eroded if the convicted murderers languish on death row for twenty years while endless squadrons of attorneys bring appeal after appeal. The system is broken beyond repair.

The only fault I find in Ryan is that he should have commuted the sentences a year earlier so that the people of Illinios could have impeached him if they thought he was wrong. Doing it on the last day in office is somewhat cowardly.

	15-01-2003 09:21									#103
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Sirhan Sirhan and Hinkley are both clearly crazy. It would not be serving justice to put them to death.

Ryan said a year ago he was going to do this if the Illinois legislature didn't fix the system. They didn't and he did what he said he would do.

	15-01-2003 10:03									#104
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quote: I understand how some people are against the death penalty in practice because of the social inequalities in the justice system, but I'm sorry, if you murder someone, you should be put to sleep.

Why is it that if an indivual kills someone based on revenge, he should be killed, while if a state kills someone based on revenge, it should be applauded? The justice system should protect society, not satisfy someone's bloodlust.

quote: Heaven forbid we kill anyone, like the guy who rapped a 10 year old and then slaughtered her, and freely and happily admitted it. The parents can always have more babies, f*ck them, right?

How are the parents "****ed" if someone spends his life in prison instead of being killed? The murderer/rapist certainly wouldn't be able to kill any more of their kids.

Of course, that might not be true if their kids end up in prison as well (prison violence and the like), but that doesn't matter since criminals are inhuman and we ought to be tough on crime.

quote: Look at the poll numbers supporting the Death Penalty in Illinois. Then see that every person on Death Row was convicted by a jury (originally).

And the DP is an action of the state.

quote: And Executive orders are, on the whole, more authoritarian than laws passed by the legislature. Exec orders are unquestionable orders of authority, while laws are questioned by the opposition. Unquestionability is one of the primary parts of authoritarianism.

Again, Ryan's actions reduce the authority of the state on the convicts. Hence, they are anti-authoritarian.

quote: Lenin, Mao, Mussolini... I can name more well run revolutionary uprisings where a leader led the charge.

And I wouldn't call any of them well run.

quote: No he isn't. These acts do nothing to prevent future executions from taking place, he has merely decided to show leniency in this case.

Yes he is. Yes, these acts do nothing to prevent future executions, but they do prevent the relevent executions. Which is the point.

quote: Also democracy and authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive. Democracy only concerns the ways laws are passed. Authoritarianism is something used to describe the law.

Again, I think of democracy as the rule of people, not the rule of the state, hence it is always anti-authoritarian.

	15-01-2003 10:20									#105
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quote: Again, I think of democracy as the rule of people, not the rule of the state, hence it is always anti-authoritarian.

So you'd rather support public lynchings then is what you are really saying? Since that would be rule of the people and not of the state.

Of course what you don't realise is that the rule of the state in Democratic Republics is the rule of the people. You can't have one without the other.

Though I do look forward to you supporting your local lynch mobs .

	15-01-2003 10:22									#106
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Lynch mobs are authoritarian too.

I'm just pointing out the idea of democracy in my political ideology.

	15-01-2003 10:26									#107
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re Authoritarian: so is forcing Anarchism on people . People naturally want some form of government, and the rule of the people is to organize to form governments.

Lynch mobs are the rule of the people. They are pure democracy at work.

If you don't have a state and you don't have 'lynch mobs' then you allow criminals to run free. That really sounds like something the 'people' would support .

	15-01-2003 10:31									#108
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Some authority is ok. A reasonable justice system is a necessary evil, but it ultimately is authoritarian. The DP is an unnecessary evil.

	15-01-2003 10:36									#109
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Some authority is ok?! What kind of anarchist are you?!

	15-01-2003 10:39									#110
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An unorthodox one I suppose.

Actually, anarchism is an extremely broad political category.

	15-01-2003 20:11									#111
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actually i watched show last night on chicago anarchism up to the heymarket riots and albert Parsons. And how marshall fields really controlled the city. Nice show

Hey you know the labor unions sold you out ramo?