11-01-2003 23:31									#1
	Project: 'Big Water-Carrying Thing' Enter the AD-FREE zone

I believe it was originally Sir Ralph that proposed this idea. The basis is that we create a sort of aqueduct, made out of irrigated tiles, from our own 'River of Tears' all the way up to the northern boundary of the jungle belt (or another location that we decide while discussing this matter) and let Vox continue this aqueduct all the way to their homeland.
As you know, Vox is without fresh water and they have to drink smelly salty water, which in turn affects their minds and causes them to do all sorts of silly things such as blocking landbridges and stalling diplomatic procedures. They may be very interested in this project, but first we have to fully form it in our own forum.
The goal of this project is to do what countless alchemists have failed - turn water into gold. We can demand a certain amount of gpt from Vox for as long as the project is under construction, as well as other forms of payment, such as a slave (which we can promise to return when the project ends) or a tech.
The end result of this project, should is succeed, is that we'll be richer and Vox will be, well... less smelly, or at least less thirsty.

What are your opinions on this matter?

	11-01-2003 23:36									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think it is a very good idea, but it is difficult to put a prize on it.

What is something like that worth..?

	11-01-2003 23:36									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It was meant as an opportunity for a deal in the future. I think it's too early to begin with it, but we should not lose the deal out of view.

	11-01-2003 23:40									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Is the tile next to Thadeus ingame seen as a lake or coast?

I think it is coast, but if it's not, then all this is not needed.

	11-01-2003 23:47									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, I would propose it to them at the earlies possible time, as the faster it happens, the faster we can get advantages from it too.

Just to compile all info in one thread, this is what I proposed:

They supply us with slaves, for each 2 slaves they give us, we agree to add one, and work the fastest possible path towards them. Irrigation will be last thing to get improved, after clearing possible jungle, and roading the tiles. So, we both have advantage of it.
It's up to Vox when to start this (although a small warning would be appreciated, we should add at least one worker ourselves), and they can decide on the duration, by giving us multiples of 2 (4 slaves will work double as fast, as we would add 2 workers ourselves). After water is supplied, we are free to do witht he slave as we wish, we can sell them back, add them to our cities, or whatever we want to do with them.

Nathan already pointed out that if they were to start clearing the jungle from their side, it would go a lot faster, but that is no deal to us: we don't gain anything if they do it alone. We supply water on the sole promise that it is good for us too. If they want to speed things up by starting from the other side: fine, but without at least 2 slaves, no water will get transported out of our territory.

Re: urgency: it would surprise me if they would be very fast to do it, but the faster, the better. An irrigated road North would be very good for our Northward expansion, which will most likely start in 15 turns or so. That's the only reason why I propose to add one worker per 2 slaves.

Oh, and if they want to give something else instead of slaves, they can, but I think a minimum of 1 slave / worker is appropriate. After all, we give them growth, so they will need to give growth to us as well.

DeepO

	12-01-2003 00:01									#6
	Support Apolyton

Wait a minute!!!

We are talking about growth enhancing improvement- the one thing it is absolutely critical to have Vox behind in. We can't just offer it is to them, let's keep our cards hidden for a while- It won't be a while before some dispute over land might arise, and this might be used by us as an item for trade- water for land, and it's also logical, [GS] you need food to feed your people, and fields to grow food in- why not let us (for the right price) connect you to our network of irrigation, so that you can prosper without they need for more territory, and our current dispute can be resolved with mutual agreement (hint, hint).

If presented now, than please without specific conditions, only as a "teaser"- let them consider it, say that we will as well, and we will set our proce in the future.

Don't let them feel inferior now, and don't let them fantasies about taking a hold of our fresh water supply. This should be discussed later, in some inter teams committee, and also be used in our wide effort to delay the Voxian advance towards the southern edges of the Isthums.

	12-01-2003 00:04									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

How about this: we lease them our workers. 3 gpt for each Stormian worker working on the aqueduct, or they can give us slaves to do the job, which they'll either let us keep, or pay a leasing fee of 1 gpt for each slave, with the promise that the slaves will be returned when the project is finished.
In addition, Vox can decide if they want just the irrigation or a road as well. They can also have status reports + screenshots (we'll make sure that we don't reveal classified information)

P.S. We must remind them that we are an industrious civ, and as such our workers work twice as fast as theirs, and our slaves work as fast as their domestic workers.

	12-01-2003 00:16									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmm, Shiber , Vox is industrious too

	12-01-2003 00:34									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think you are missing the point of this, beyond the obvious monetary value of having irrigation in your territory- the effect on growth is a great one- we just can't let Vox have it without making sure their growth is cut down by either territorial compromises, or slaves, or maybe both. We just can't sum it up in X-gpt for a worker, and we wan't Vox to have the commerce to trade techs with us, while limiting their food and shield potential.

	12-01-2003 00:51									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As Sir Ralph said, it is far too early to seriously consider this plan yet, although it is something to keep in mind.

Once we do get around to negotiating this, we should engineer to the deal so that the Voxian Workers are clearing the Jungle, and not ours, due to the chance of disease. Even if they realise that this is disadvantageous to them, I think it is a condition that is more than fair given the circumstances.


Dominae

	12-01-2003 01:02									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree that it is too early.

I like the inventiveness, however. This would be an extremely long term project, and may serve to stabilize relations. how long would it take to get water there? Also, do they desire it? they will only have a couple cities south of thadeus, so do they care?

	12-01-2003 02:40									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Dominae: I didn't know field workers can catch disease in PTW.
Asleepatthewheel: we can bring water all the way to the Isthmus and Vox can continue the aqueduct and bring water to their entire homeland.

	12-01-2003 02:42									#13
	Suffering from ads?

We should by no means do it in the REX phase, for obvious reasons.

	12-01-2003 02:57									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Agreed.
We should definitely form a concensus on this plan and have it ready for as soon as we want to bring up the issue with Vox.

	12-01-2003 03:28									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Dominae: I didn't know field workers can catch disease in PTW.

I'm pretty sure this is the case, but now that you raise the question, I would like to know with 100% certainty. Anyone have the answer?


Dominae

	12-01-2003 03:47									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: due to the chance of disease.

I have never seen it happen. To the best of my knowledge only fortified units are subject to disease.

	12-01-2003 03:50									#17
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Asleepatthewheel: we can bring water all the way to the Isthmus and Vox can continue the aqueduct and bring water to their entire homeland.

So I take it they are to build a city there? Isn't that square a hill?

	12-01-2003 04:17									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The one with the worker is a hill (as Dominae pointed out , there could very well be iron*), the one with Thadeus is forest plains.

Anyone up for a pool on this ?

	12-01-2003 04:22									#19
	Remove this text

No need for a consensus this early on, we've seen how the changing circumstances play tricks and ruin our well crafted plans. We need to keep an open mind- the idea is good one, but too early for our REX phase, and might be used to stabilize the relationship with Vox- both of these are of the not so early future(although i doubt our relationship with Vox will ever come to a true peaceful stability- its just too crowded, and the early distrust will lead to dire consequnces in the future- hopefuly, for them...).

	12-01-2003 04:31									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by alva The one with the worker is a hill (as Dominae pointed out , there could very well be iron*), the one with Thadeus is forest plains.

Hah, indeed you are correct, I must be going blind, those tiny images. hmm. thanks.

	12-01-2003 06:14									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay, first of all, we should start to find out if the have access to water. If that is true, we don't need to spend any time on this issue. I suggest to include some hint in next message, so it gets off our minds.

Second thing: Indeed, the only thing that can make this work is if we are going to limit their growth. Slaves is a much better option than they keeping their workers, as it means that growth is added to ours. I don't think we should wait too long with this, for the simple reason that it helps our expansion phase. We are going to need to irrigate and road a path up there soon enough, only the last few tiles will be for them. It is a small price if we can now do what we want to do faster (as a bunch of their slaves help us), losing a few turns on one of our workers later on. By the time we are really working for them, and not for us, workers aren't that big an issue any more, and once it gets finished, we would have not lost anything, while they lose slaves.

As limiting their growth is so important, slaves is the only way I'm going to agree on this, let them stay in their arid desert if they don't want it.

A quick calculation on timing:
there are 13 tiles to irrigate, to get from the river to where their border will be if they settle the Isthmus. Roughly, that will take 13 turns for any worker, if it's 1 or 20 to walk (not entirely true, as previous workers can road ahead. But as we want to delay it a little, they don't need to road ahead).
- Of those 13 tiles, 3 are jungle. this will require 36 turns for one GS worker to clear.
- 13 tiles irrigated take 26 turns for one GS worker
- 13 tiles take 26 turns to road.

If we count this up, we get to 88 turns for 1 worker to get water to the Isthmus (plus an extra 13 movement), so with one party of 1 worker and 2 slaves it will roughly take 44 turns + 13 movement, or 57 turns. 2 of our workers, and 4 of them will take 22 + 13, or 35.

I know there are some ways of speeding it up, but let us, for the moment, take this number as a reaslitic guess.

So... by the time water gets to Vox if we start now, they will be out of despotism, and need it for growth. But, for every worker we will commit, they are going to give up the food equivalent of one extra city. I think it is a fair trade, either have growing cities in monarchy or republic, or don't have any decent cities, but a few cities more.

If we would find out they have no water, it would possibly be the best deal we can make in this game: we would be limiting their growth, while using some of what we do in theory for them for our own. And most importantly: if they decide to attack us, we simply have a bunch of slaves, and they have no water. It would certainly pacify them, once they get the importance of what we are doing for them, they will be a lot easier to trust.

Oh, and again: I don't mind giving them the opportunity to choose on timing: if we tell them it is going to take 50 turns with 2 slaves, 35 with 4, they can decide when they want it. For this project, I wouldn't mind starting on it right now, but that is not going to happen: they need to build those 2 slaves first.

Last remark: it would be impossible for them to do it alone if we settle #1 (in the desert, covering most of the fp tiles in the city view). The fastest their worker is going to reach it is 12 turns, which they both can't risk now, certainly not as we could block his access while we get a city plopped down there.

DeepO

	12-01-2003 14:15									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

(1) In one of the close-ups, it's clear that the tile by the chokepoint is salt water, not fresh water. The land on the right side is not connected. Whether they might have fresh water elsewhere is, of course, another issue.

(2) I recall reading a post that looked pretty definitive that workers are immune from disease. Also, with how many turns we've all had workers clearing jungles in all our various games, we would have seen it if it were possible, right?

	12-01-2003 19:13									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay (2) I recall reading a post that looked pretty definitive that workers are immune from disease. Also, with how many turns we've all had workers clearing jungles in all our various games, we would have seen it if it were possible, right?

I'm pretty sure I had seen this before in my games, but memory doesn't serve sometimes. Like other questions we've answered (Flood Plains, chopped Forest), I would like to know the answer for certain.


Dominae

	12-01-2003 22:48									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Our price should be higher than 2 slaves, more like 4-5 at the lowest, and even than we won't commit them all for the project. We must gain something from the very start- and that should be slaves to work our fields, or land (them compromising), or tech (although they probably won't have much to offer, but still). Think big on this one- we are talking about irrigating their homeland- this is a tremendous boost for them, especially given the fact that they are low on land- they need to bring up pop quickly, even if they settled everywhere they can.

	13-01-2003 02:56									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Assuming we get Writing by the time the deal goes through, contact with the other team Vox has met might be something we'd want as part of the terms of the deal.

So far, there are four situations I can think of where arranging to provide Vox with water could make good sense. (1) If we're about to take them out, so it's really our lands they'll be improving. (2) If we decide on a partnership instead of trying to take them out. (3) If we can arrange for them to settle one or two fewer cities toward us in exchange for water to help their core get bigger. (4) If they're willing to pay and commit enough workers early enough that it will have an indirect result of reducing the number of cities they can build in our direction, thereby allowing us to claim more land.

By the way, I still think it makes sense to have Vox workers under Vox control be the ones who clear the jungle and build a road through it to meet us (unless we have cities in the part of the jungle in question by the time we make a deal). If that frees up the workers they give us (assuming that's part of the deal) to work on our projects sooner, is that a bad thing?

One last interesting tidbit: anything water can get through, war chariots can get through.

Nathan

	13-01-2003 03:36									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay One last interesting tidbit: anything water can get through, war chariots can get through.

Wait a second. I thought the "fresh water project" was a trick to get the jungle cleared for our WCs all along. You mean we're actually considering giving them water?!?!



But honestly, tesions will rise before this project ever gets completed. The more tiles Vox improves for us, the better.


Dominae

	13-01-2003 03:51									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Water rights are an expensive project for us to undertake, particularly if we seek a friendly status with the Voxians.

Due to the recent treatment of us by the Vox (delay of responses, threatening warrior postures), I don't believe we should carry this out.

Let's keep the water to ourselves. Let their growth be minimized, we owe them nothing.

Meshelic

	13-01-2003 05:18									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I still think that if possible, we shuld hurry up to propose it, and maybe even using an increasing price: Sure, they can wait 15 turns, but then it will cost them a minimum of 3 slaves. After 30 turns from now, maybe 4?
BTW: if they want to commit more workers, to minimize duration by improving from their side: please let them. They more workers they commit, the less they will grow.

This would seem to fit many demands:
- limiting their growth (early on especially).
- fast progress, which frees us from later leftover deals we have to finish before going to war
- 'let them pay for our improvements' deal: at least the first half of the project we would do anyway. WCs can reach the capital.
- build trust, at least for a certain amount of time. We wouldn't gain by attacking them now and we should get time to expand peacefully, and to balance our defense.

But, we should hear from them first if they are interested...

DeepO

	13-01-2003 19:39									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nathan,

That's exactly why I liked this idea when SR first brought it up.

IIRC, this was my proposed method:

1) Get 1-2 slaves from Vox, on the condition that the only work they do is irrigate or chop jungle to get the water through. Any other work would be a violation of the agreement.

2) Assign 1 Stormian worker to road and help chop jungle.

3) Once we get up to the jungle, we could offer to let a couple of their workers through (ROP, essentially) to help chop and speed things up. This assumes that we grab the jungle in our REX phase, which may not be the case... but in that case, this idea is even more powerful. It gives them a reason to chop the jungle and open themselves up to invasion.

Too early to make specific plans, I know. We need to see where our expansion meets theirs, and go from their.

-Arrian

	13-01-2003 20:06									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Again, it is not too early. The earlier, the better. We won't lose too much, but Vox loses a lot of growth. And we can use what is irrigated and roaded to get our expansion going.

DeepO