16-01-2003 08:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by kalbear Well, again, this is kind of expected behavior. When you have basically a finished product - the features are there, the code is basically done, etc, and you make some heavy design changes, it can be often harder than simply starting from scratch. Even if it isn't harder, it's a lot of work. There's the dev work that has to revisit code and change a whole lot of it, make sure things work according to the new design - which also has to be done. New graphics need to be implemented and moved about. That sort of thing. And then there's test. A lot of the previous testing basically gets thrown out the window. All the regression needs to get run, creating all manner of bugs and issues. New tests need to be thought up to test the new design, new stress needs to be done. And all the effort on manual testing? That's basically wasted. Add to this that they weren't in the final testing phases of the game yet - that was work that they've basically gotten into recently - and I can see it taking 8 months. When this happened to Half-Life, for instance, it took another year to release.

If what you say is all true, wouldn't you say that they were absolutely wrong in marketting the game and blabbing release dates way ahead of what they knew would be true?

If they just started testing and it is the norm for software testing to take many many months, as you say, then they should not have given unrealistic release dates. That's an absolute no no in any industry.

I think that is what many are angry at. If they are as good as you at developing software , shouldn't they have known that their release dates were absolutely ridiculous?

	16-01-2003 08:19									#92
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 If they just started testing and it is the norm for software testing to take many many months, as you say, then they should not have given unrealistic release dates. That's an absolute no no in any industry. I think that is what many are angry at. If they are as good as you at developing software , shouldn't they have known that their release dates were absolutely ridiculous?

Hardcore testing started in Sept/Oct and quite frankly we really (both IG and QS) thought we would hit thanksgiving. Could we have shipped a game on thanksgiving, yeah. Would it have needed a patch? Yeah. There were some ugly 'out of nowhere' bugs that occured that were really really unexpected.

In software, it does happen. Do I like that it happens? No. Do you try to build in buffer time? Of course. Sometimes it ain't enough time however.

	16-01-2003 08:28									#93
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good enough for me.

I'm not against you, only trying to give you my take on why so many are angered.

Just learn from your mistakes and say that you can't give a release date, because apparently this game is so complex and unpredictable that it isn't realistic to do so.


As you say, in software **** happens, and I can appreciate that.

But stop with the guessing about release dates.

Which you admit is a guess when you said "we thought we would hit thanksgiving, but bugs appeared out of nowhere".

Just say that the game is the most complex game in history to program, and a release date is unpredictable.

Every date you give and miss only fuels the fires.

	16-01-2003 08:29									#94
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by the way, is "Rantz" and "Chantz" just a coincidence?

	16-01-2003 08:56									#95
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quote: Originally posted by SeanV Whoa, CT, where did that come from? The purpose of a good strategy game is to be confusing? The kind of confusing where you wander around for hours on end wondering if you have been here before, or if there ever was a before? Isn't the whole purpose of strategy to pit mind against mind and idea against idea and let them fight it out with as little interference from Lady Luck and the Three Sisters of Fate as possible? Or have I been living in a fantasy world all this time? Please tell me what is true and what is false... I'm really confused now.

Maybe our Comrade should pick up Azurik. That's a delightful game for the Xbox that's everything he's asking for and more. It's a beautiful looking game that promises all the twists and turns you could ever hope for. It is also the most asinine hunk of sh*t anyone has ever tried to sucker you into buying. If MOO3 is a third as confusing as Azurik was to play and packed all the walloping "fun" I enjoyed as I spent hours trying to figure out how to reach an area the AI promised me was where I was supposed to go when in reality I couldn't get there until I completed several puzzles that were several hours (real time) walking distance away...*Harry gasps for air*...then I'd hunt down every developer that destroyed the game I love, hold them down, and take a dump on their pea-sized weasely head.

Now, I began following the development of this game shortly after Mr. Emerich departed the MOO3 team and I'll admit I like many things about the grand vision he had for our game. However, if he couldn't make it work then he couldn't make it work. With the mass of devoted fans he's aquired, I'm sure someone will sign him to develop a game that includes all the elements we've debated for months. Maybe he'll even be able to work out some of the kinks in the design that will make it fun again. Until then, look to Azurik and shudder at what may have been.

	16-01-2003 09:16									#96
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I must admit, I am really looking forward to Gal Civ -- I believe space games are cool when ships can really move wherever they want, and aren't limited by space-lanes (which is what I think it is.)

That's what makes these kinds of games great...full tactical deployment...it might be too impossible to do, cause it would be crazy...and in theory, some ships could simply run away for ever.

	16-01-2003 09:44									#97
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 Just learn from your mistakes and say that you can't give a release date, because apparently this game is so complex and unpredictable that it isn't realistic to do so. As you say, in software **** happens, and I can appreciate that. But stop with the guessing about release dates. Which you admit is a guess when you said "we thought we would hit thanksgiving, but bugs appeared out of nowhere". Just say that the game is the most complex game in history to program, and a release date is unpredictable. Every date you give and miss only fuels the fires.

They haven't missed a date since December 4, because they haven't given a date since December 4. The lesson was learned over a month ago (after Chantz got crucified at IGMOO).

	17-01-2003 02:19									#98
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Okay...so I was wrong. The redesign was not due to mass market decisions, but rather the feel of the game.

In all fairness, though, I really believed what I wrote...and I did defend QS and IG

Asmodean

	17-01-2003 23:46									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Rantz MOO3, prior to the refocus of the design did *not* have a sense of cause and effect that was clear enough for even those of us working on it, and KNEW what was going on under the hood. If you know the formulas, and that's the case, well there is a problem at hand.

I see what you are driving at here; but I rather don´t see how that couldn´t be solved by tweaking the formulas.

I had been looking forward to a game where particularly the domestic part would play a large role, and which you would play for the sake of playing it, rather then developing the speediest formula to conquer 2/3 of the Galaxy in the shortest possible time. I find that whole concept so tremendously boring. Basically my gripe is that, whereas Moo3 could have been the first serious political sim ever, it devolved into another conquest game; and there have already been so many of those.

	17-01-2003 23:57									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Moo3 could have been the first serious political sim ever,

Dont worry, this game will be http://forum.antikgames.com/pax-rom...criptionUk.html

	18-01-2003 01:03									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I see what you are driving at here; but I rather don´t see how that couldn´t be solved by tweaking the formulas.

because feedback and enduser experience isn't relayed in formulas. In a HUGE amount of the cases, formulas remained the same, the depiction and feedback mechanism changed.

	18-01-2003 06:11									#102
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you know,

I never got a response to whether "rantz" and "chantz" is a coincidence



anyone know?

	18-01-2003 06:12									#103
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They're script kiddies

	18-01-2003 06:28									#104
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so it was made up to give a sort of "developer relationship"?

not sure what you mean by script kiddies.

	18-01-2003 06:44									#105
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quote: Originally posted by GP They're script kiddies

	18-01-2003 06:45									#106
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Mmmmm redundancy..

Attachment: rofl_laugh.gif
This has been downloaded 201 time(s).

	18-01-2003 06:56									#107
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hmm...i think a detailed political simulator, if even possible, is something that only really really hard core sim fans could appreciate.

Not to say it is bad, it would be most interesting actually.

But, I don't think MOO was ever about being a political sim. It seems like a conquest game to me. Why not follow along those lines?

But I have limited experience with MOO.

	18-01-2003 06:57									#108
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sorry wrong place to post my last post

	18-01-2003 06:59									#109
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hmm...i think a detailed political simulator, if even possible, is something that only really really hard core sim fans could appreciate.

Not to say it is bad, it would be most interesting actually.

But, I don't think MOO was ever about being a political sim. It seems like a conquest game to me. Why not follow along those lines?

But I have limited experience with MOO.

	18-01-2003 07:01									#110
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my post was intended at CT.

i got all confused! too many beers..

	18-01-2003 07:51									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Rantz because feedback and enduser experience isn't relayed in formulas. In a HUGE amount of the cases, formulas remained the same, the depiction and feedback mechanism changed.

I was mostly thinking of items like in this screen. How could the formulas stay the same, if you dropped most of the content?

	18-01-2003 08:00									#112
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Hmmm, for once I agree with CT… tentatively. I don't see how the feedback can be one dimensional without the effect being one dimensional.

Unless QS finally took my suggestion to "hide the numbers from the players."

	19-01-2003 02:53									#113
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 you know, I never got a response to whether "rantz" and "chantz" is a coincidence anyone know?

Chantz said he used it before he knew Rantz, and Rantz used it probably well before too.

	20-01-2003 08:58									#114
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I'm so sick of the EU/HoI games getting labeled as "amazingly deep" and the "rebirth of strategy games".

They are neither. Neither are suited for RT, they would play far better as a turn based game, and the interface might have worked better. It is a pure attempt to appeal to a broad audience at the cost of ... gameplay for these games to be real time.

But the engine for EU is probably one of the simplest game engines I've ever seen. In reality, WC3 is far deeper in what you can do, and the decisions more meaningful.

HoI is deeper, but still isn't that deep. After picking the country you want to go to war with, there isn't much to do except beat them up and pick the next. Until you are at war with all of them, in which case you are just beating up everyone. Sound dull? Well unless you are planning on recreating history while roleplaying your nation it is. I got bored with each of the games after 2 sessions because honestly, there really wasn't much strategy required to consistantly win the game.


PS: a lot of what old schoolers consider 'strategy' games have died due to the lack of actual strategy and reliance on artificial depth (like HoIs needlessly pointless tech tree). The bottom line is that if a game is played at all competitivly by even a small community charts containing cost/benifit will be overly available for those who want to know what the 'best' decision is. As it would only take a hard core player about 6 hours with a calculator to find ideal paths. After that it retains far less depth then Civ3s... unless you are a total n00b who just stares at the screen lost in the 47 different choices you have at any given time.

	20-01-2003 13:07									#115
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Go download Strategic Command, it's cool. Simple, old-school graphics, but mega-fun TBS!

Nations of Europe fight one another in WWII.

Still waiting on MOO.

	20-01-2003 22:41									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Unless QS finally took my suggestion to "hide the numbers from the players."

In many cases, that's exactly it, in other cases (like slaves for example) the controls and feedback were placed in areas where there would be logical association.

And Rantz and Chantz is a coicidence. The name on my driver's liscence and Soc. card reads Rantz A. Hoseley.

Chantz = Constantine Hantzopolis compressed version of his name.

(Funny aside, at the first E3 promoing MOO, Con didn't believe my name was really Rantz until I showed him my driver's liscence. He thought it was my 'stage name' lol...)

	20-01-2003 22:53									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Rantz In many cases, that's exactly it, in other cases (like slaves for example) the controls and feedback were placed in areas where there would be logical association. And Rantz and Chantz is a coicidence. The name on my driver's liscence and Soc. card reads Rantz A. Hoseley. Chantz = Constantine Hantzopolis compressed version of his name. (Funny aside, at the first E3 promoing MOO, Con didn't believe my name was really Rantz until I showed him my driver's liscence. He thought it was my 'stage name' lol...)

We kantz believe it in Frantz
nor while we dantz
nor at the point of a lantz
nor while we farm our plantz
nor while we get our government grantz
We kantz believe it anywhere.

Sorry Dr Suess.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	21-01-2003 03:10									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Jack Frost I'm so sick of the EU/HoI games getting labeled as "amazingly deep" and the "rebirth of strategy games". They are neither. Neither are suited for RT, they would play far better as a turn based game, and the interface might have worked better. It is a pure attempt to appeal to a broad audience at the cost of ... gameplay for these games to be real time. But the engine for EU is probably one of the simplest game engines I've ever seen. In reality, WC3 is far deeper in what you can do, and the decisions more meaningful. HoI is deeper, but still isn't that deep. After picking the country you want to go to war with, there isn't much to do except beat them up and pick the next. Until you are at war with all of them, in which case you are just beating up everyone. Sound dull? Well unless you are planning on recreating history while roleplaying your nation it is. I got bored with each of the games after 2 sessions because honestly, there really wasn't much strategy required to consistantly win the game. PS: a lot of what old schoolers consider 'strategy' games have died due to the lack of actual strategy and reliance on artificial depth (like HoIs needlessly pointless tech tree). The bottom line is that if a game is played at all competitivly by even a small community charts containing cost/benifit will be overly available for those who want to know what the 'best' decision is. As it would only take a hard core player about 6 hours with a calculator to find ideal paths. After that it retains far less depth then Civ3s... unless you are a total n00b who just stares at the screen lost in the 47 different choices you have at any given time.

Well said. Very well said.

	21-01-2003 04:34									#120
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EU and HoI did their bit to revitalise the grand strategic level strategy game market. They're real time to make them more suited to multiplayer but in SP mode you can make them as turn based as you like by changing any or all events to pause the game. Nobody is saying they are perfect, but they are distinctly better than the majority of "strategy" titles that have been released in recent years and personally I include Civ III in that.

Last edited by Grumbold on 21-01-2003 at 20:35