11-01-2003 23:48									#1
	Can it get any more simplistic? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Look at the 'Oppressometer' screenshot in the Wargamer preview. All Oppression does now is either increase/decrease happiness or counter espionage; it seems to not even have an influence on research (or anything else). Where is the complex social engineering that was promised 2 years ago? I remember an older screenshot with five or six different sliders for different parts of society. Is this all gone? Will there be fewer social engineering policies than in SMAC? Who needs another CivIII style wargame?

If this idiotic 1-dimensional Oppressometer slider is characteristic of what to expect I need a *puke* smiley to express my opinion about this game.

	12-01-2003 00:05									#2
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they don't know what they're doing. They probably realized that and simplified the whole game just so they could get it out in 3 years time.

	12-01-2003 00:21									#3
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A wee bit disappointing, yes. SMAC, unrealistic as that system was, still stands as the champion of social settings.

	12-01-2003 00:24									#4
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I apologize for my outburst. I'm sure they know whjat they are doing.

It just can seem like they are clueless at times, given the extensive time and delays.

but oh well.

	12-01-2003 00:30									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I remember there were tons of info about the zillions of different policies you could implement. Based on this, I wrote quite an enthusiastic piece for Poly a year ago. I take back everything I said! If they trashed most of the socio-political options, they trashed the justification for Moo3´s existence, as far as I am concerned.

	12-01-2003 00:41									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Well, given they left in only the slider you'd feel ideologically compelled to crank up to max each time, I feel your pain.

Nevertheless, I think you're doing too much out of this. I'm sure we'd all want a complex social system, but remember the orion dealing and wheeling is still in.

	12-01-2003 01:24									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Maybe they were justified in feeling that Alan Emrich had bit off a larger chunk than he could chew. I mean, as hardcore strategy gamers go, these SE settings are yummy.

But the majority of buyers out there are not hardcore. In fact they are anything but. And since sales are sales, and dollars are dollars, they had to cater to these people. Hence cuts were made.

In the end, I'm sure that MoO3 will be worth the wait, and I'll defend that opinion untill I actually play the game and find that it sucks

Asmodean

	12-01-2003 01:49									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Still, even if not ultra-complex, we could try to make it complete. Like not more bars and all, but each bar can have many effects...

Exemple in social engineering:
You have 6 types of changes you can make.
You have 6 types of effects it can have.
Possible changes: oppression, taxes...
Consequent effects: on science, on population control...


Would this be nice AND complete?

	12-01-2003 02:45									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by moomin Well, given they left in only the slider you'd feel ideologically compelled to crank up to max each time, I feel your pain.

I won´t go into in-depth discussion of my political opinions here, because Ming restricts me, if I do ; however, I´ll say this:

I believe Palaeoconservatives and the Left (as opposed to Liberals) are on the same side in one respect, namely that both believe a society can be TOO open.

That said, this is why I dislike simplicity: A lot depends on exactly WHOM you oppress -the rich or the poor, for example- and IN WHAT RESPECT -culturally, socially, economically, politically, religiously? There is no system where nobody is oppressed in any respect, and there is no system where everybody is repressed in every respect -this is why I hate this screenshot. It spells STUPID -purely and simply. Maybe we can even agree on this for a change.

	12-01-2003 02:50									#10
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quote: Originally posted by moomin ...but remember the orion dealing and wheeling is still in.

Doesn´t console me at all. MOO Diplomacy is ok, with or without Orion, it was Race INTERNAL policies I was most looking forward to.

	12-01-2003 02:54									#11
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trifna Still, even if not ultra-complex, we could try to make it complete. Like not more bars and all, but each bar can have many effects... Exemple in social engineering: You have 6 types of changes you can make. You have 6 types of effects it can have. Possible changes: oppression, taxes... Consequent effects: on science, on population control... Would this be nice AND complete?

What is so depressing about the screenshot is that things are not any more inter-related. Everything should influence everything, as it is you can make few changes, and even those have only ONE effect each.

	12-01-2003 03:00									#12
	Got spare money?

Btw, what about 'THE SPEECH', another centerpiece of the design I was looking forward to? With simplistic or no social engineering, The Speech doesn´t make a lot of sense anymore, so it´s probably out as well?! Now, where is that puke smiley already?

	12-01-2003 03:07									#13
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They got rid of the various sliders because as they said there were too many and it was unclear what the results of adjusting them were. Perhaps 'oppression' should be renamed 'openess' or 'internal security'?

As far as I can tell 'the speech' is still there under 'cassus belle'.. right?

	12-01-2003 03:20									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by RolandtheMad They got rid of the various sliders because as they said there were too many and it was unclear what the results of adjusting them were. Perhaps 'oppression' should be renamed 'openess' or 'internal security'? As far as I can tell 'the speech' is still there under 'cassus belle'.. right?

Yes, there were too many sliders ...could have made for an interesting game, really. Great idea to take them out. *insert 3 puke smileys here*

That the combined results of diverse adjustments are at first unclear is exactly as it should have been. The fun is in figuring that out. Obviously Emrich understood this, and some of the dumber playtesters didn´t...

The Speech, as I understood Emrich, could have many different contents and purposes, not just a one-dimensional means of acquiring a casus belli, seemingly they have succeeded to destroy the subtlety of this as well. GREAT. *insert 5 puke smileys here*

	12-01-2003 03:27									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hmmm... guess I`ll add these to my 'cuts' thread.

	12-01-2003 03:32									#16
	Found the Puke Smiley! Increase the size of your Attachments

Feeling slightly better now...

Attachment: puke.gif
This has been downloaded 801 time(s).

	12-01-2003 04:45									#17
	Ah, how it could have been... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just for the sake of nostalgia, THIS is how the "oppressometer" was originally intended to be like:

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e...3_screen005.jpg

Nice and diverse possibilities, not condensed into one single slider bar. What really impressed me was the concept of a complex internal political system. Political factions, diverse social settings, racial picks, social technology etc. I especially liked the idea of government leaders. From planetary viceroys, to system governors, to sector commanders, and finally, to a cabinet with ministers and an imperial leader/emperor on top of that. I think the idea was that ALL these leaders had abilities that affected planet/system/empire, and also had their own agendas and political affiliations. Orginally you actually had to consider both the internal state of your empire and it's social/political elements, as well as struggle with the other races and the senate. When I see screenshots from the current game it really breaks my heart, because almost all of that richeness is gone. The system for leaders/political parties is completely excised - even the "government agenda" idea is gone. Now the game seems to be almost completely focused on external affairs, and very little one internal ones. Sure, you have unrest, but that seems horribly simplified compared to what was intended. Compare the "oppressometer" shown above, with the current one: http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/moo...iew/moo3_12.jpg). In addition your "cabinet" now consists of a handful of imperial-level leaders, functioning as mercenaries like they did in MOO2. No "style" or ambition, no popularity or political agenda.

And here's some screenies where you can see the planetary leaders with abilities (they had stuff like style, loyalty, political clout and popularity for *each* leader) :

http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/oldscreens/moo22.jpg
http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/Planet04.jpg
http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/a5.jpg
http://www.orionsector.com/artbin/e3extras/11L.jpg

I guess there were reasons to cut these elements from the game. But I still can't shake a nagging feeling that it wasn't because of practical design difficulties, but because it made the game too complex for the "average" gamer, and thereby limited the game's market appeal.

I can always hope for the internal political stuff to be included in an expansion, but I think the odds for that are beyond infintesimal. I think an expansion will feature mostly new races, technology and stuff that's easy to include, but no radical design changes.

So I guess we'll have to wait for MOO4. Perhaps in 2010?

	12-01-2003 05:02									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It seems the functionality of the 'Oppressometer' is limited to what used to be the 'Secret Police' slider. Someone who can post on IG should say something. Not like it will have much affect unfortunately.

	12-01-2003 05:12									#19
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Well, the other option is that it may have added needless complexity.

For instance, in the first shot - there's a lot of basically the same deal, all in 5 sliders. Most of them have a similar effect to each other, meaning that it's not like it's a big deal to modify one without others.

If they all basically do the same thing at the same cost, why not have one slider?

Then there's reorganization. There is another slider that deals with slave life expectancy (or FLUs, they're called now) that the strat guide brings up. So that got moved. Dealing with indivdual leaders doesn't matter any more now that they're all global leaders and you control everything, so that's out. The government slider is now encapsulated within the government types and is more concrete.

The disinformation bit is gone. Not sure how much fun that'd have been. Same thing with 'code' breaking, which seems to be another complexity tacked on to the espionage group.

Again, I think once IFPs got removed, a lot of things needed to be changed or removed to make sense. Telling your leaders what to do and what not to do doesn't matter so much when you can control everything - 'hinting' isn't such a big deal. Same goes with controlling your people.

	12-01-2003 05:37									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'd not seen those screen shots before and I agree that it's sad how the design has been gutted. But what irritates me most about the "oppressometer" is its name. It's so fake - dopey words like that ruin the sense of immersion. The game really cries out for an editor to go over all the text and red pencil such illiterate gibberish.

For really impressive detail of this kind, check out Hearts of Iron. I just love all the leader bios and descriptions. And the wonderful tech tree. And the organisation rules. MOO3 looks quite crude alongside it. I hope they do a space game next ...

Andrew

	12-01-2003 05:45									#21
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Yes alan emrich's vision was far better, i have no doubt that the simpler moo3 vision is because of I.G wanting a CIV3 in space game.

	12-01-2003 05:58									#22
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Angor: I agree 100%. Your screens show the really innovative part that made the game worthwhile.

What Emrich had in mind was more like a futuristic sim. Instead, they have made just another world conquest game -as if there weren´t already 15 too many of this sort. The CivIII debacle again -I can hardly believe it!

	12-01-2003 06:59									#23
	Suffering from ads?

The problem, according to some of the people involved, was that as interesting and in-depth as the Emrich galaxy simulator was, that's all it was -- a galaxy simulator. It wasn't fun, it wasn't a game. Hence the great redesign.

Obviously, they have a biased view, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I have a chance to try the game myself.

	12-01-2003 07:24									#24
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So what most of you guys wanted MOO3 to be was Simcity in space? Dang, the only way you could change it more would be to call it The Sims in Space instead of MOO3. I agree that a lot of these ideas that they were tossing around before Alan left would have been cool, but seeing the final product I think I see why they cut or changed most of it. MOO is a game of exploration and war more than a game of politics. To create a game of based almost completely on the byzantine structure of galactic politics that people could play and enjoy would be the work of a lifetime. It is hard enough to guess what human politicians, under normal earthbound pressures will do, and almost impossible to accurately predict how normal human beings will react to something. You guys are hoping for a game that not only similates how the maddning crowds of Earth act, but also how the restless crowds of Nazin think. That is a pretty tall order for one game company IMHO.

	12-01-2003 17:46									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The problem was not that it couldn´t be done. It had already been done! (See the old screenshots.) They watered it down puposefully to please the idiots.

	12-01-2003 17:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by SeanV So what most of you guys wanted MOO3 to be was Simcity in space?

(Simcity married to Gary Grigsby´s Pacific War) in Space. Would be the perfect game, imo.

	12-01-2003 18:04									#27
	Re: Ah, how it could have been... Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Angor But I still can't shake a nagging feeling that it wasn't because of practical design difficulties, but because it made the game too complex for the "average" gamer, and thereby limited the game's market appeal.

Excuse me, but they actually raise the game's market appeal by doing that. It may be that we as avid strategy gamers like these features, but the average gamer out there find these things just a tad too complex. As the average gamers are the majority, QS and IG have to cater to these people. So sales will actually improve with measures like these.

Asmodean

[EDIT]I am not say that I agree with them. I want a complex game as much as you guys. But I do say that I understand them.[/EDIT]

	12-01-2003 19:01									#28
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Do we really know what 'the market' wants? There are lots of games already that cater to the lazy and slow-witted, but I suspect most of them don´t like TBS games at all, so why not cater to the hardcore gamers for a change? EU does this, and is quite successful (would be even more successful if it were less buggy.)

	12-01-2003 20:01									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well actually I cant remember any recent Space(4Xor more) sims released that were actually good in recent Time so lets wait n see wheter its fun or not?

	12-01-2003 22:49									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If it was already done the other way... couldn't they make a sort of MOO3plus, where all this is in it? I mean the same game, except with all this stuff... some kind of option.