12-01-2003 00:36									#1
	[ooc]: GS vs. Vox? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I wanted to discuss this outside of the Diplomacy thread to get a more focused debate.

The way I see it, early war between these two is inevitable if Vox truely is controlling a chokepoint on a small continent.

However, GS finally relenting and exchanging Mini-Maps and now wanting our complete world map seems suspicious in light of this. They are looking for ways out, but they need Map-Making to do so.



Questions we might should seek more info on:
Are either team bee-lining for Map-Making?

...and most especially GS because they have our Mini-map. If they are, god help those sweet lands to our south because they are coming.

Are they considering or already preparing for war with one another?

...again, especially GS, because they are hemmed in.

Are they actively trading with one another?

Neither team began the game with Pottery or Alphabet. Both are prerequisites to Map-Making. If they are trading, the timeline for them getting to our continent could be much sooner than otherwise.

And then, some questions for us...

Can they bee-line for Map-Making and wage war effectively at the same time and will this affect how we colonize the coastline?

Diplomatically, how should we respond to the possibility of war between the two?

Should we discourage war and promote friendship and cooperation between the two through our correspondences... thereby attempting to delay the time when one becomes dominant? Or, do we secretly attempt to set them against one another in hopes that the war prevents GS from trying to colonize our subcontinent?

	12-01-2003 01:50									#2
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First, GS does not have our minimap, just our start location. We have no reason to give them our minimap and should not do so.

Second, no team knows about the fertile subcontinent and we must keep this absolutely secret. We must settle the borderlands first and then fill in the south from the direction of Barselona.

Third, as GS and Vox both do not have Alphabet or Pottery, they've got a ways to go to research them. We are on the fastest possible route to MapMaking. And it also sounds like they're not trading with each other. And no one has contact with either of them.

It's possible that Vox might have a connection to Lux, but neither side has confirmed that. Knowing GS's position, I highly doubt they can trade with anyone else until after Mapmaking.

I would guess that GS will run to Mapmaking, but will get it far later than us. I don't think they're a threat to colonize our continet YET ... but once we take our ships out to map the shores we'll have a better idea.

I do think that their rivalry will remain a Cold War until one of them gets a signifigant advantange ... some connections and techs from a 3rd party, or a 3rd party ally. I think they both know that going to war as equals now will keep them both in the dark ages.

--Togas

	12-01-2003 02:10									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Togas First, GS does not have our minimap, just our start location. We have no reason to give them our minimap and should not do so.

Well, they have a minimap, just not our current one but one of our start. IIRC, they requested our current one.

I find it suspicious for them to suddenly open up to ideas of minimap trading especially in light of their desperate position in relation to Vox.

quote: Originally posted by Togas I think they both know that going to war as equals now will keep them both in the dark ages.

As far as that goes, war may be their only way out of the dark ages. If you don't grow, you die. Its that simple.

	12-01-2003 02:24									#4
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If we assume that the choke point is easy to lock, they will run to Mapmaking as you said and get it later than us. But if their land is so small that they cannot rex beyond five or six cities, they will make their cities grow, more productive, and I wonder if that would not improve their research a lot, all the more that they would not need a great military.
In that case, they will certainly clear the northern part of their continent from Vox as soon as they get galleys before landing on ours.
It could be different if the choke point is wide.
In any case, we should not trade tech with them until they are on the same level than us.

	12-01-2003 03:01									#5
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Be Warned, GS has a large number of people who come up with very ingenious ways to get out of tactical situations. Woe to anyone (Vox Included) who forgets that fact.

E_T

	12-01-2003 03:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Be Warned, GS has a large number of people who come up with very ingenious ways to get out of tactical situations. Woe to anyone (Vox Included) who forgets that fact. E_T

Right, and they have tested all these ingenious ways ...

	12-01-2003 05:24									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Togas It's possible that Vox might have a connection to Lux, but neither side has confirmed that. Knowing GS's position, I highly doubt they can trade with anyone else until after Mapmaking. --Togas

Could this be a possible reason for them to want the "we don't explore your area and you don't explore our area?"

	12-01-2003 22:51									#8
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Yes, Senor Thrumble, it could very well be.

If this choke hold is as is said, there is no doubt that warfare shall come about. Who will win such a war, I could not say. The People of the One Voice of the Big Mouth have a gift for making weapons out of a mineral high in the mountains called 'iron'. With this, they can arm the single greatest corps of infantry on earth, bar none. These strong and able warriors, the Immortals, as they are called (so it seems because they are so vast in number that a new line of attackers can come up immediately after the first falls), are nearly unbeatable in these close quarters. Even a good group of bowmen would find a battle with them a great challenge.

However, the Gathering Storm is made up of some of the greatest tacticians on earth, and so I'd say they are thus equally matched...if the Voxians can indeed find their iron. If not, than the contest is an easy one. The choke hold will be broken, and the Voxians will fall.

If not, the people of the Gathering Storm will look for alternative means, this is obvious. Indeed, even if they destroy Vox Controli entirely and inherit their lands, they will still colonize other lands to survive, lest they be relegated to living on a large island, with no influence on the outside world. Once they can build their own ships, they will come, and of all the civilizations on earth, none gives me such a sense of foreboding as that of the Gathering Storm.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Squid Baron

	12-01-2003 23:50									#9
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As concering this matther, IMHO, we should stay rather neutral, but aid GS a little more so than Vox.

How about this notion of a current Mini-map trade.

Trade an edited minimap, with out lower fertile region edited to look unexplored? Can we do this?

	13-01-2003 01:27									#10
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Until we have a better understanding of where their continent is compared to ours, and how close both actually are, I don't think we can predict who we should back in their coming war.

The team that wins control of that island will have one goal in mind -- sea invasion. If we are the closest nation to that continent, we want NEITHER team to win control of that continent. If Lux or Lego are closer, we can consider siding with one or the other, depending on who we see as a lesser threat to our overall victory in this game.

We should remember that GS is playing Egypt and their War Charriot probably won't break through a chokepoint, however, Vox's Persian Immortals CAN break through any early blockade and can probably do some serious damage to GS regardless of their tactical know-how.

However, if you ask me which team I'd rather see win that war, I pick Vox. They're on the northern half of the continent, and would likely pick on a northern foe next. And they are the only other "roleplaying" civ in the game. We have more in common with them than any of the other teams.

GS has too many "expert" players to be allowed to survive into the late game. I'd rather see them killed and then invite their refugees to join us.

--Togas

	13-01-2003 01:45									#11
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Togas, you have points, but i still see having GS around, even if vasalized for the most part, as being better than letting Vox take control of that peninsula.

From a player standpoint, it is agreeable that GS is the bigger threat. But if Vox becomes some sort of superpower, that peninsula could easily be used as a staging point for an invasion, and i see good reason to believe GS would be happy to make a deal to allow such an attack, if they are vasalized to the point of non-attack.

We need not a single team to leave the game due to conquest, IMHO. The more there are, the less eyes fall upon us, and the more we may be able to puppeteer. if GS is the weaker party at the outbreak of a war, we cant just sit idly and hope Vox will settle with 1 or 2 cities.

	13-01-2003 02:09									#12
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I know from the Strat forum that Theseus has "experience" early on with overlapping cities to great effect against the AI at higher levels. If they are limited on land, this could be a temporary fix to their problem.

But ultimately, their lack of land will prohibit them from ever becoming self-sufficient. They won't have the resources, luxuries, or the cities and metropolises they need to be effective.

I think it is critical that, as our Great Leader said, we go meet them on their land and get an early feel for just how desperate their situation is. A last-ditch invasion of our continent or at least colonization of it would seem only a matter of time, if they are between a rock and a hard place.

	13-01-2003 08:04									#13
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I agree with Milord that it would be better in that sense to see the Gathering Storm broken up and conquered. Vox Controli is a terrible danger, yes, but I think the Gathering Storm is even more so, for the chaps running that government have alot of squid-sense.

However, I wouldn't like to see the mindless Controlians gathering too much power. Someone has to keep them in check also.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Squid Baron

	13-01-2003 21:06									#14
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Dear GodKing,

My apologies for not being able to get back to you sooner. there is certainly alot going on within our team, which tends to makes any discussion slip past proposed deadlines. Also, Meshelic lately needs to focus more and more on rl issues, and won't be able to be so active in the position of GS foreign minister, and ambassador to your people. I hope that, for the time being, me replacing him as interim ambassador won't cause any problems.

I'll try to answer all your questions in proper order.

1. Vox.
We have maybe eased tensions between our nations a little, which is good. However, at this point there is little reason to believe that Vox will proof to be the long-term trading partner we hoped to get as a neighbour. The sooner we can meet other Civs (and yes, Spain has always held our highest regard), the better.

2. Non-aggression pact.
Certainly, a non-aggression deal between our nations sounds good, but there are some diplomatic catches which make it difficult for us to agree to one formally. First of all, we have stated before that we are going to honor all deals, and generally play the game honorably. While in essence a noble cause, lately it has come to our attention that there is more then one snake under the grass, it certainly makes this game more challenging.

One of the problems here is the concept of non-aggression: we are a peaceful tribe, and would love to ratify our position more officialy. But, we can't foresee what might happen in the far future, and thus feel wary to commit to long term deals. OTOH, all deals with a fixed end date (like your 50 turns after meeting) are in itself tense, and seem to imply that it is kind of a countdown for hostilities once the deal ends. This scares us even more, as we don't like to imply this, tension is something that builds up over time, and is not supposed to eplode so immediate.

Also, it makes us a bit vulnerable, as it would take away the proverbial stick. For instance, once we would agree to a non-aggression for a longer duration, anybody could sail a settler to what we plan as our future territory, and plop down a city completely surrounded by our territory, undefended. Indeed, it could rely on us for its protection against other civs, as they most likely need to pass through our territory to reach that lone city, which we can't accept because we are sworn to non-aggression. There are more issues like this, and I agree that with a bit of friendliness and openess this kind of situation shouldn't appear in a game, but we don't want to get our hands tied on deals that initially seem beneficial for two parties, but after a while proof to be too constraining for us.

But, these smaller issues could be resolved with a few modifications... the above city-building problem can be easily resolved by including a paragraph in our deal that states that Civ A will not build a city in the neighbourhood of Civ B's territory (e.g. on the same continent within 8 tiles) without Civ B's approval. This approval should be easily given in most cases, but at least it takes away the aggressive nature of settling too close to someone's borders.
Also, the fixed duration issue should be able to be worked around with for instance a running deal: agree to 20 turn non-aggression, but negotiate all 10 turns. So, when a negotation crashes, it would still leave both parties 10 turns to prepare their defense, meanwhile trying to glue the pieces together, and reach a deal anyhow.

... to be continued

3. minimap / contact
In the same respect, we would welcome trading current minimaps with you, certainly as it will guide trading galleys accross the high seas relatively safely. But, those minimaps can also be used to explore possible colony sites on the other continent, and we don't need colonies of any civ near our borders soon. The available land on our piece of land is most likely going to be divided (hopefully peacefully) between Vox and ourselves, there is no abundance, just barely enough. I know, we might seem territorial to you, but at least territorial is better than warmonging. Again, it is a show of honesty that I share with you these concerns, we really would like to avoid becoming them any issues later on. And, we can understand you have similar issues when it comes to your beloved homeland, and would like to anticipate them as well.

If you could agree to such a deal, where we promise not to use minimaps to chose the best spots on the other continent, I'm sure we will be fast to trade our minimap (full proposal will need to get polled in our senate).

BTW, when I was talking about the piece of land explored, I forgot that you are expansionist... through luck, we have explored a lot of land (up until we bumped into Vox, after which scouting stopped), but surely we can't keep up to your glorious explorers. My mistake, for which I apologize.

Also, you were talking of acquiring galleys soon. We have been working toward a similar goal, but the tension with Vox has delayed our progress. Do you have a rough estimate on how long it would take for you to arrive on our shores, and be welcomed with the biggest welcoming party our people could afford? Not only would it make planning for the festival easier, but maybe it could also guide us in our research, so that we can complement each other instead of doing things twice.

4. Tech trades:
we would welcome this very much. As you have contacted many civilizations, we can only imagine you will be advanced in many disciplines. However, we of Gathering Storm are proud to announce we have the best facilities when it comes to research, and our analysists say that the gap between us and the rest of the world will most likely only increase in the coming years. Maybe we can't share any interesting techs with you now (I doubt it, but maybe), but certainly we have the potential to become your best partner when it comes to research. You are right in that this might not be the best time to discuss it, but a lot depends on when you foresee to arrive on our shores. If that moment would already be very close, it might be best to start planning common research goals, instead of just dealing with what we have.

5. Wonder agreements
Sadly, we can't commit to this deal at this point in our game. Of course, our nation also longs for the Great Library, even if we may not be so focused as other teams in building it. But we can't rule out any unforeseen situations: if one of our troops would for instance be promoted to a leader at the right time, I'm certain that the GL would be a sure demand in our team, we can't be constrained then. Case by case deals may be possible, but I doubt that we will get a majority when it comes to 'giving' the GL to any other team, however sweet the deal would be.

.. to be continued (sorry)
]
5. Secrecy.
Don't get me wrong, but to be honest, proposing to gain the minimap of another civ was a bit of a test from our side. Whatever the result of negotiations would have been, we were not going to acquire a minimap in such a dishonorable way. However, we liked to assess how safe our information would be in your hands, how much we could trust you. After all, this is still a fairly young world, and you never know who you deal with. I hope it didn't damage our relations, but it was one of the few options we had to test you, and you passed brilliantly.

We regard secrecy of deals very high, and will never betray our trading partners in such way. But, as you have said before, there is a difference: techs acquired through deals are not the property of the original owner anymore, and can freely be sold again. Where the tech came from is something else, we are not going to tell the origins of any tech. This is certainly different from minimaps, which do kind of belong to te original owner, and are not to be shared. Also, I told you a bit on the relations between us and Vox, this is completely from observation, and nowhere the result of any diplomatic contact between our two civs. What is said in diplomatic contacts will remain secret on our side, to the best of our abilities.

I hope this is a decent reply to your proposal, please contact me if I would have forgotten anything. Also, please don't mind my English: I'm fully aware that it doesn't grasp the little differences in meanings natively speaking people see and understand. Whereever there is doubt, understand that I do not want to imply anything wrong, it most likely is just a language error of me. This is part of the reason I needed this much text to explain myself, I really want to avoid any misunderstanding.

I wish you the best of luck, and let's hope to meet your explorers soon,

DeepO

	13-01-2003 23:41									#15
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After reading DeepO's mail, in full, I gather this....


GS wants an ally, bad.

They seem to be looking for tech handouts till they get on their feet (Great Library beeing a decent example of such). And they are very willing to trade minimaps, so we can find them, and they will agree not to settle on our shores? That seems like more than they would offer if we were on even ground.

But at the same time, theyr fearful of a non agression pact. I could see how any team would be. And id bet if we gave them a pledge to defend them from Vox, theyd jump on it with everything they have. But thats outside of our means right now, and it would lessen ourselves in the eyes of Vox.

But as far as what GS wants, and what we can give them. We'll, it seems too obvious that GS needs tech. As for their claims that once they get to an equal level, their research is the best, i would probably doubt that at the time being. Gifting or selling tech cheap to them could be something we never profit from, other than offsetting Vox's superiority


and something that REALLY caught my attention was their mention of getting a great leader for the Great Library.
I think this shows an obvious intention for an attack on Vox, to get this great leader.

GS obviously shows an inferiority complex, and paranoya towards Vox. They want to get ontop of the game in that viscinity, and they want us to help.

Thats what I gather

	14-01-2003 01:55									#16
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Whenever I play Civ3, I hate starting next to Persia. The Persians will suddenly drop 3 Immortals into your territory and attack you at their first opportunity. If I'm not prepared, the first city they attack is toast. From that point on, I can usually fight off the AI's lousey tactics, but I absolutely hate fighting Immortals. You cannot defend against them, you must attack them.

Now, imagine playing against a Human with Immortals. Large stacks, hidden tactically by fog of war, following good defensive terrain, sacking cities easily as they march almost effortlessly through your territory. You know they're going to win, the only question is how much territory they can take before you can stop them. And once they win, Golden Age starts up and they come out even faster.

Sure, the Egyptians have cheap WCs to throw up against Immortals to slow them down. Sure, they can counter with their own GA, but can you imagine the dread they're facing daily as they try to come up with battle tactics to fight the best UU in the game? Add to that the fact that their enemy is Scientific and can probably beat them to research if on an even pace.

They need an edge. They need a counter. And They feel like they need some friends.

--Togas

	14-01-2003 13:51									#17
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The real problem would be for GS the lack of horses or of iron; in this case, we could help them seriously (it is sure as for horses, and probable for iron) without risk.

	24-01-2003 18:46									#18
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GS (first figure) score compared to Vox

3450......27.......33
3100......43.......47
2630......58.......58
2230......70.......64

GS has recovered from his bad start (He felt necessary to move his settler on the first turn), and has just settled his 3rd city in 2270. GS is now producing basic score points at the same rate as ND and Spain.

IIRC, the last message of Betahound was the first of two parts, and the second part was apparently never received. We could send a reminder or something.

	25-01-2003 00:07									#19
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Personally, I think GS can overrun Vox even with the immortals as a consideration, but we'll see... those immortals certainly stack the deck.

I agree that it is quite near to CERTAIN that Gathering Storm's pretence at being a "peaceful civilization" is false... they're talking up a storm in that forum about how on earth they're going to conquer Vox Controli... I don't even doubt it.

The things we want from them:

1. Do not found settlements on our claimed subcontinent - period. Perhaps we can say they shouldn't found any cities on our continent at the level of our capital or south of it? Perhaps we could extend the line to so many tiles north of our capital?
2. Non-aggression - will not attack us.
3. Will not invade any nation on our continent without at least consulting with us first (respecting sphere of influence)

Things we can afford to give them:
1. Will not found settlements on their continent
2. Non-aggression - will not attack them.
3. Will not invade any nation (Vox) on their continent without at least consulting them first (respecting sphere of influence).

Other agreements:
- Tech trading (eventually)
- Map trading (eventually)

Our business on our own continents is our own business, but each side would obviously agree that it might be of mutual interest to keep each other informed if they want any help, etc.

The above needs some alteration (especially part #3 - I'm not quite sure how that should work... perhaps not invading on the other continent at without *approval* from the other team... but that will seem somewhat lopsided to GS... we'll see), but it's a start.

Thoughts?

	25-01-2003 00:10									#20
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What I'm after with Gathering Storm is something along the lines of an agreement to respect each others' spheres of influence in addition to a mere non-aggression pact... that's a better agreeement and it handles the problem of worrying that the other team will plop a settler down right next to them.... as a prohibition against that is incorporated into the same agreement.

	25-01-2003 00:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos What I'm after with Gathering Storm is something along the lines of an agreement to respect each others' spheres of influence in addition to a mere non-aggression pact... that's a better agreeement and it handles the problem of worrying that the other team will plop a settler down right next to them.... as a prohibition against that is incorporated into the same agreement.

I have been badly impressed by their reluctance regarding the non agression pact : a 10 turns delay when they refuse to renew such a pact reduces immensely the interest as well as the meaning of the pact, all the more that it is a rolling ten turns. If they stick to that, we cannot contemplate more than ordinary trades.