12-01-2003 05:24									#1
	Turn 31 Increase Your PM Length

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- We possess 32 gold and are running 1 deficit.
- Researching Alphabet at 100%.
- The Wheel/Bronze deal is still pending, because Vox hasn't "accepted" it yet, but I'm willing to think they just forgot this.

Urgent questions:
- How far shall we withdraw our scouts?

Military:
- Scouts (Grog, Slash) to be discussed
- Hack and Ouch shadow Tim and Willy.
- Crush returns to Hurricane

Economy:
- Hurricane finishes warrior, starts worker.

Diplomacy:
- Continue diplomacy with VC, may be we can hammer out either a limited non-aggression pact or a trade agreement. We should try to increase trust, at both sides.

Last edited by nbarclay on 12-01-2003 at 06:39

	12-01-2003 05:34									#2
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Has the Voxian Worker begun terraforming yet? If so, what is it doing?


Dominae

	12-01-2003 05:42									#3
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I don't think it's possible to see with the warrior over it.
(I asked the question too IRC a turn ago)

	12-01-2003 06:05									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Has the Voxian Worker begun terraforming yet? If so, what is it doing?

Don't know, it's hidden "under" Rodney.

	12-01-2003 06:29									#5
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Re: retracting scouts: if Vox doesn't move their scouts closer to us, I would be inclined to move Grog 2, onto the mountain. Slash could then move towards the final mountain, to spot whales.

If they stay put, I would leave Grog for the time being, but I'd rather have them up the mountain anyway. a bit safer, if they would decide to build a chariot or horseman (doesn't matter with slowmovers, I think)

And I fully agree on the diplo comment: we need more trust, on both sides. If Nathan has any energy left, I would start on preparing some geo info for them, certainly mentioning our nice, but short river. And ask them if they have water while you're at it

DeepO

	12-01-2003 13:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Has the Voxian Worker begun terraforming yet? If so, what is it doing?

They might also be building an Outpost, to see longer - and to act as an early warning system, so they dont have to keep the warrior there to see incoming units.

	12-01-2003 13:31									#7
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If they build an outpost, they lose the worker. That would be absolutely insane at this point of the game. (Not that I'd mind if they do it. )

	12-01-2003 14:21									#8
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Unless there is iron there(maybe even then), they are wasting valuable worker turns. 6turns for roading a hill under industrious?

	12-01-2003 15:26									#9
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Three turns for an industrious worker to road a hill, six for non-industrious. (Hills require double the time of grassland or plains to road or mine, but of course for industrious workers, three normal-worker-turns for a road ends up rounded to two.)

Edit: still, it seems wasteful unless there's iron there. using a laborer on a hill makes no real sense at this point in the game; growth is too important. So my bet is we'll find iron there when we get the knowledge to see it.

	12-01-2003 18:44									#10
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Even if there is iron, I've would have waited a little while more, unless they're gonna (and are capable of) upgrade all there warriors, there is no good reason to road it.
Two cities is hardly enough to build a serious amount of immortals, is it.
(And there is always,although small, a change of it disapearing)
As you said, at this stage you want to concentrate as much as possible on growth.

	12-01-2003 18:54									#11
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Once again i say- Grog and Slash are by no means Scouts- even if they are on lands closer to Vox's capital. We will develop faster, so by definition our lands will be larger, if they scouted areas that will surely be ours, while we are stuck on a 3x3 tiles area without any ability to move forward, (they block us) nor backward (leaving a gap for them) and now they stopped and we pulled back one tile, i say its fair and honorable.

Remember- Vox havn't shown any good will before we practically begged for their attention, and this wasn't why the are showing it now- its in their interest to have us fall back, because they need those lands- My question is, why are we making this easy for them?- it's not that we threat the security of their core cities, as they where about to threat ours (by scouting till they reach our borders- which they are still able to do, while we are not).

I say no to further retreat- we have no immediate risk for war- so we don't need that lookout now, it will only signal them of our willingness to give up that land.

	12-01-2003 19:10									#12
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I don't think we are trying to make it easy for, but at the moment they can be of good use to us.
It doesn't really matter if they settle another city this side of Neck.

The moment we can take them out with a short war, I'm sure we will be at least considering, don't forget that this game doesn't end with vox being beaten (well, it does for them ), there are others to conqueor/beat too.

Allthough, if they keep pushing the limit...

PS, if we would go to war with now or very soon, it could be us having to settle for an early retirement.
A couple of immortals with spearman making sure we can get to the horses, no iron close , and some bad luck with the RNG is all it takes ATM.
The longer we can stay in peace, the more the odds swing to our favour, as we will outgrow them(fast?), we will have more production,gold & better tech/units.

(another point is not to waste our GA in despotism, not the end of the world, but I prefer to have in Mon or Rep.)

	12-01-2003 22:38									#13
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I agree fully with what you said, alva, but by all means- us not retreating doesn't disturb the temporary peaceful coexistence, since it is based on common interest (tech deals, for now), and also mutual fear from war. This situation is possible because of these conditions, and despite obvious lack of mutual trust (which we try to build, but we both think a conflict will come some time in the future and prepare ourselves to crush the enemy, when the time comes). What i say is: retreating the warriors won't help mutual trust, and definitely not to the extent to which they would refuse those deals and forego peaceful relations, which for now they seem desirable, for them and us. In short: we won't get any good from retreating, and won't lose anything (for the while at least. And by the time circumstances change, i would reconsider) if we don't, so other factors must be taken note of- like our inevitable conflict over land, which seems like you already gave up on :"they are closer", "we better settle our south first" and the like...

	13-01-2003 02:31									#14
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I have a proposed message to Vox describing our lands in the Vox comments thread. If you don't like it as is, please speak up soon.

Edit: Message sent. Vox will very likely be getting the turn soon, and I want them to get our message by the time they do so they'll have an extra sign of good faith from us.

Edit: Jon Miller got the message at 17:51 Apolyton time. Turn thread still indicates Vox hasn't gotten the save yet, so maybe the message can do some good.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 13-01-2003 at 03:57

	13-01-2003 03:56									#15
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What are our plans for the Worker?

	13-01-2003 04:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus What are our plans for the Worker?

Our first worker's next move is 6 so he can chop, irrigate, and road the northerly of the two forest furs he's near. The worker being produced by Hurricane will do the same to the forest fur adjacent to Hurricane.

	13-01-2003 04:24									#17
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Shouldn't we at some point road the two irrigated fur tiles?

	13-01-2003 04:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Shouldn't we at some point road the two irrigated fur tiles?

Our first two irrigated fur tiles have no real need for roads until either Republic, Monarchy, or a GA, and even then, roads there would be less valuable than roads on other tiles we're working (or equally valuable in the case of Monarchy). Since workers will be in short supply for quite some time to come, those tiles are unlikely to be roaded until our REXing phase is almost over.

By the way, note that EotS gets the benefit of furs when our first worker finishes its road, and Hurricane gets it when the worker from Hurricane finishes its road. So we don't need roads in the original fur tiles for access to luxuries either - at least not until we have trade routes with more civs that want furs than we have furs available for trade.

Nathan

	13-01-2003 04:35									#19
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Roading those tiles will do nothing until Republic or Monarchy. They can potentially produce 3 trade (1 road, 1 river, 1 furs), but Despotism only allows 2 of those. And, given the local geography, roads would not help movement around that area (assuming we road the other fur tiles after we chop and irrigate).


Dominae

	13-01-2003 04:46									#20
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I never knew the "2" production limit under despotism applied to gold as well.

	13-01-2003 13:16									#21
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Turn received. The trade deal has been accepted, we have Bronze Working now. The Voxian scouts were withdrawn farther, probably north (I can't see them anymore). Hurricane finished a Warrior and can make a Worker in 4 turns by both food and shields. EotS will grow again next turn. Since we have a Warrior there, the fifth citizen should be content, no happiness issues.

I didn't have the time to play the turn, take shots, post scores etc., before I went to work (where I am right now). But no pressure, our Green hours have just begun and will last 7 hours. In about 9 hours I arrive at home and can play the turn. Meanwhile, we should discuss, what to do with our Warriors.

	13-01-2003 14:03									#22
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Looks like your calculated risk changing to Alphabet paid off. Fantastic!

How about if we go ahead and move Grog and Slash down to the mountain as an extra sign of good faith? We'll learn about the new city when they build it since we've already seen the land, and if Vox were planning a doublecross, they'd have to be very good actors to fake such reluctance to our propoed deal. From there, I'd like to see Grog fortify and Slash go back and check out that tiny bit of coast Grog missed earlier.

I also get the impression that Vox didn't understand my invitation for them to station Tim and Willy farther forward. (My idea was for Willy to take up a post on the northernmost mountain north of Hurricane and Tim to take up a position 4-4-4 from that, thereby giving them about as good a warning as we have.) My suggestion is for me to re-issue the invitation and for us not to get in the way of Vox's warriors moving into those positions. That, coupled with Grog's withdrawal, should overcome their concern about the disparity in how far away the two sides' forward observers are. (Yes, I still want good relations with Vox; at the very least, they still have at least one contact we'll want when we get Writing.)

The new warrior in Hurricane, of course, heads toward EotS.

Nathan

	13-01-2003 14:13									#23
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quote: Hurricane finished a Warrior and can make a Worker in 4 turns by both food and shields.

That won't last because EotS will need the other irrigated fur for two turns once it grows. (No changes needed this turn in connection with that; just looking ahead.) We should be looking at five turns building the worker: one on irrigated fur, then two on unimproved grassland, and then two back on irrigated fur once our settler is finished.

	13-01-2003 16:03									#24
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I think Slash could move to the unexplored mountain right away (I don't know by heart if it would be a detour to follow Grog for 1 turn).

Re: Voxian forward scouts: I can't imagine they want a war with us right now, and if they want to, they will need their scouts to upgrade to immortals (yeah, reg immortals ). Don't push the issue, let them choose where they want to observe us. So, don't write them a separate note telling them we like them closer, but the next message you sent, it's alright to put it in a PS or so... as long as you pack it as a gift to them

DeepO

	13-01-2003 17:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I think Slash could move to the unexplored mountain right away (I don't know by heart if it would be a detour to follow Grog for 1 turn).

The unexplored land I'm referring to is farther away. When Grog first did his exploring, he headed up along the hills by the western coast for a while but then headed back east before getting all the way north. That leaves a single presumed coast tile that we haven't uncovered yet, and a couple presumed sea tiles farther out where whales may lurk. Since we only really need one warrior to watch for Voxian troops on the move, I figured slash could go back and check that out. (Actually, Hack could do it a whole lot more quickly, but he's busy shadowing Tim.) Actually, now that I'm looking for them, I can find about half a dozen other presumed sea tiles within potential city radii along our western coast that haven't been uncovered yet.

quote: Re: Voxian forward scouts: I can't imagine they want a war with us right now, and if they want to, they will need their scouts to upgrade to immortals (yeah, reg immortals ). Don't push the issue, let them choose where they want to observe us. So, don't write them a separate note telling them we like them closer, but the next message you sent, it's alright to put it in a PS or so... as long as you pack it as a gift to them

I'm not saying we'd like them closer, but if they feel like we're demanding that they go farther back than what we really expect, that could leave a bad taste in their mouths. My thought was to word a note in a spirit of, "We think you may have misunderstood our idea regarding forward observers. If you want to, you can move your scouts to..." (Of course the actual wording would be a bit fancier.)

	13-01-2003 17:55									#26
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Wouldn't it be better to explore the North coast before going West? We may end up being blocked by territory before we can reach North again... of course, the Western coast should be fully explored too.

okay on the note to their warriors.

DeepO

	13-01-2003 21:28									#27
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I'm heading home now, but can't play the turn anyway due to the file corruption issue.

	13-01-2003 23:22									#28
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Please- leave nothing less than two warriors on the Isthmus area, we must always have the chance to block their passage south when we want/need to. That one tile is nothing to waste that many turns in grog/slash going all the way south and north for. Leave the observers there, we threat no one, and secure our holding in the region (or at least as much as they do with their warriors).

Also on this issue- i will open a threat regarding our rights in the division of the land- Vox's claim on the lands south up to the tip of the Spinebreaker mountains is absurd- our warriors met there warriors along a line that streches from coast to coast and goes through that tile to the north ("8") of that wheat tile surrounded by jungle (and then the Voxian warriors retreated, to block the isthmus, only to return the turn after when their third warrior secured the isthmus).

	13-01-2003 23:36									#29
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Zeit, I don't like to lay down borders now at all, it is something that will grow. Of course, their claims are absurd, but do they now already that from now on, we can build more then double the settlers they can?

Plus, purely looking at it in a distance way isn't exactly right: their land is much narrower then ours, we can put down more cities concentrated around EotS. And we need to (at least for a while), as our best production centers will be to the South of us, while Vox is North. For them, these two directions (border with us and production) falls both to their South East...

Re: blocking: I don't think we can. They are less aggressive for now, so we should be too. We should keep one warrior there as a show of goodwill, and complain the moment we see any troop appearing.

DeepO

	13-01-2003 23:46									#30
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We first met Vox in between the Spinebreaker Mountains and what I'll call Lookout Ridge, the lone mountain directly north of the Spinebreakers. I view that area as "first come, first served," but only if the civ that tries to claim it has filled in essentially all the land closer to home first. Staking a claim there just to block the other civ's expansion would be a hostile act.

In regard to the idea of preserving the possibility of a blockade, as long as we have things we want from Vox, a blockade would be a bad idea. They would be at least as furious about it as we were about the isthmus situation. If Vox behaves themselves, we don't need the blockade, and if Vox doesn't intend to behave themselves, I'd rather know sooner than later. So I see no particular value in maintaining two warriors in the area.

Nathan