12-01-2003 18:09									#1
	Italians War Criminals of WW2 Got spare money?

This morning there was a nice documentary about the process of the many war criminals of WW2, and to my big surprise in between them there were very few Italians, compared to a huge number of Germans and Japanese Officers, and those few often managed to get away with very little.

Now.. I don't think that Italy had fewer war criminals of Germany and Japan, so I would like to know, what happened to them, why they were not arrested and judged by an International Court like the others?
How come that Jugoslavia, Greece or Ethiopia did not ask for the Italian war criminals to be judged?

Saluti

	12-01-2003 18:13									#2
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I didn't think Italy did have the same number of war criminals, I mean, you didn't have the holocaust like Nazi Germany did (although a fair number of atrocities under Mussolini I suppose). Or at least not to my knowledge or perception.

	12-01-2003 18:29									#3
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Exactly- and most of the existing ones were actually killed by the angry civilians or executed by the new gov in the early months after Germany surrendered to the allies

	12-01-2003 18:36									#4
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Yes... but how come that someone like Graziani, who was captured by the US, managed to go out with a few years in prison and that's it?

How come that Badoglio was never even charged for his crimes (using gas against Ehtiopian civilians)?

I mean... many many German officer were charged and executed for much less.

Saluti

	12-01-2003 18:39									#5
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I guess that has something to do with our almighty left-communist party

	12-01-2003 18:42									#6
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You mean that they used Badoglio and Graziani to counter the (at the time) super growing communist party?

Saluti

	12-01-2003 18:44									#7
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Hmmm I don't know much about this issue.
But Italians did not have a bad reputation as Germans did.

Also I don't think you were revengful after you were defeated in Albania and I also don't think you wanted to fight an aggressive war.

All the crimes I've heard of, which were comitted in Greece (like burning up and executions of whole villages), were comitted by the Germans.


I also think you became the object of the Nazi "wrath" in Greece proper as there were a lot of executions of Italians by the Germans here. As for why I don't know.

	12-01-2003 18:56									#8
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quote: How come that Jugoslavia, Greece or Ethiopia did not ask for the Italian war criminals to be judged?

We shot them on the spot. Trials, judges .. never were quite the fashion around these parts

	12-01-2003 19:03									#9
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And were they more criminal then Germans or not?

They have their portion of blame. For example Italians wouldnt just go and pillage a village, but they used divide et impera tactics for that - they use their trucks to find someone who may want to sack the problematic village, ship them there and when they are done ship them back.

Clean hands practicaly

But, in general, it has to be admitted Italians were generally less brutal then Germans and definately less brutal then most of the locals.

	12-01-2003 19:04									#10
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So basically most of the Italians War Criminals were mass executed by the population (either Italian or Jugoslavian)

Saluti

	12-01-2003 19:12									#11
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I think the big shots escaped to Italy on time

Italian speaking population who was suspected of collaboration or were rich (class enemies) took the beating.

Big shots always get away.

	12-01-2003 19:16									#12
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By the way, amazing how willing you are to speak about this

a big thumbs up


See the 'Greece faces shame' thread to see what a Wow of Silence is

	12-01-2003 19:20									#13
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*takes out lighter for the EU application of Croatia*

	12-01-2003 19:32									#14
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quote: By the way, amazing how willing you are to speak about this a big thumbs up

Eh eh eh.. thanks

Although this thread is more in trying to understand what happened to them.

I mean, many high officers of the fascist were actualyl hunted and killed by the Italian partisans from 1943 to 1945, others you say were shot by the Jugoslavian partisan.

Now... what about the ones who ordered and executed the Ethiopian massacres (using gas against civil, burnign many village claiming they were bringing "civilization") and many other things like that which happened in Ethiopia during our occupation of it.
Were they killed by some sort of Ethiopian partisans as well, or they manage to escape in time?

About the ones which were captured by English and Americans probably Datajack explanation is the best one, the Americans did not want to completely destoy relationship with the right-wingers Italian and letting Italy fall into Communism by executing people like Graziani or charging Badoglio.

Saluti

	12-01-2003 21:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 *takes out lighter for the EU application of Croatia*

ts ts, look at him... I treat you nice because you took a week's worth of beating and crapping on in that thread, and this is how you repay to me?


too bad my principles dont allow me to beat you while you are on the ground paiktina.. see you in a week or so when you recover

	12-01-2003 21:13									#16
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Im not banned!

And what beating?

The trolls only embarassed themselves with their foam at the mouth And they got it in the ass. Again.

	12-01-2003 21:27									#17
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You just dont know what to reply and you want to make it appear like grandiose belevolance me thinks. fact is you cant think of ****!

	12-01-2003 21:32									#18
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Ah check my picture thread VetLegion; you'll see someone you know very well

	12-01-2003 22:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine About the ones which were captured by English and Americans probably Datajack explanation is the best one, the Americans did not want to completely destoy relationship with the right-wingers Italian and letting Italy fall into Communism by executing people like Graziani or charging Badoglio. Saluti

Actually, when the Italians deposed Mussolini didn't they hand the government over to Badoglio? Who was in charge of the Italian units that went over to the allied side? If Badgolio and Graziani went over to the allied side before the war's end they certainly would have been spared from war crimes trials because the allies wouldn't have wanted to try an allied officer.

	12-01-2003 22:25									#20
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I wouldn't find it strange to believe though if they were put on hold in order to counter communist rebels.

Not only in Italy but in many other countries as well.

It wouldn't be the first time war criminals are "kept" for other uses.

I'm sure there is a Pandora's Box waiting to be opened about that one and probably already has, in books etc.

And not only "soldiers" criminals but also "scientists" etc who were "spared" in order to offer their "services" against the left wing.

	12-01-2003 22:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 . And not only "soldiers" criminals but also "scientists" etc who were "spared" in order to offer their "services" against the left wing.

You mean like me mein fuhrer?

	12-01-2003 22:36									#22
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quote: The trolls only embarassed themselves with their foam at the mouth

funny, it was you who keeps crying "mummy, the trolls ganged on me "

	12-01-2003 23:02									#23
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Because they cant deal with me any other way the poor sods


Edit: I dont know Doc, how's your wheelchair oiled these days?

	12-01-2003 23:05									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually, when the Italians deposed Mussolini didn't they hand the government over to Badoglio? Who was in charge of the Italian units that went over to the allied side? If Badgolio and Graziani went over to the allied side before the war's end they certainly would have been spared from war crimes trials because the allies wouldn't have wanted to try an allied officer.

Yup Badoglio was ordered by the King to form a new government in the liberated parts of Italy.

Later on Badoglio withdraw from his position and the "Free Government of Rome" was formed in the south, which was mainly composed by Socialist, Communist or Christian Democrats.

Although the southern military stayed loyal only to Badoglio.

Graziani instead went in the north, and was the military leader of the Italian Social Repubblic of Salò (basically this was a puppet state of the Germans lead by Mussolini).

On the end of the war Mussolini betrayed Graziani and tried to escape in Germany, Graziani instead waited for the arrival of the Allied and surrended his armies to them.

Even if now Badoglio is remembered as a hero of the anti-fascism, (there is even a town called after him), he still had commited horrible crimes in Ethiopia, and should have been charged for them.

Graziani was arrested by the Americans, but got away with very little punishment, despite his many crimes in Lybia.

Saluti

	12-01-2003 23:13									#25
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The war crimes tribunal were not empowered to act on COLONIAL ERA warcrimes.

Only the second world war was at issue, so acts committed in Ethiopia (circa 1936) and the Spanish civil war wern't covered.

Italy had an excellent reputation in Yugoslavia, I can't recall any excesses by Italian forces there, nor in Russia.

	12-01-2003 23:20									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The war crimes tribunal were not empowered to act on COLONIAL ERA warcrimes.

Uhmmm.... I guess that would explain it

Saluti

	12-01-2003 23:31									#27
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 *takes out lighter for the EU application of Croatia*

NOOOOO! I want to hang with those hawties. Oh. Just forgot I'm excluded from the EU. Ok, Croatia, you and Turkey will just have to join NAFTA! We can change the A to Atlantic.

	12-01-2003 23:32									#28
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Hey Italian guy, you know what I like. Comrade Don Camillo. That is who I like.

	12-01-2003 23:42									#29
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Well, just my own 5 cents:
The vast majority of German war crimes were handled in the Nuremberg processes. Italy with its partial self-liberation (others would call it opportunism, but well) was not given the same treatment after the war. The allies rather treated them with care. Like I said, the German war crimes were treated concentrated at one occasion. Back then, it was not, like today, that everyone at every instance lanced a war crime trial. Winners judged over the losers and Italy was given milder treatment - period.
Accordingly, in Italy you (even less than us in Austria, and now THAT means something) never had "Unfascization" (I don't know how the real word goes). Your former fascists joined the Democrata Christiana or even the Communists without facing their own past. Imagine a party in Austria/Germany to call themselves "Neonazi-party" or hordes of people openly worship Hitler at his grave (if he had one).

	13-01-2003 00:21									#30
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There were too many Germans who went free. Need to punish them harder. The only thing they understand is a fist in the face.