12-01-2003 23:28									#1
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We are completely immune to their chariots. THEY CAN'T GET TO US!!!!!!!!!

South of the choke point, the way to our part of the continent is COMPLETELY BLOCKED by Jungle and Mountains. Chariots are wheeled... yay!

	12-01-2003 23:33									#2
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Let me check that...

	12-01-2003 23:34									#3
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The Civilopedia says about Chariots :
(slightly paraphrased)
"Chariots cannot enter jungle or mountain tiles without roads"

It doesnt say it for War Chariots. I will start a game with the Egyptians now to check.

	12-01-2003 23:36									#4
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Sky - if so - brilliant!

Let's see what Eli comes up with.

	12-01-2003 23:39									#5
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I can't take credit. I remembered that we never used War Chariots in the Civ3 Demogame because there was a massive jungle to our north.

	12-01-2003 23:41									#6
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Yep, it works.

	12-01-2003 23:43									#8
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And I looked at the screen shot - and you're right sky. If indeed they cannot move through jungle, then there is no way their war chariots can get north.

We will still have to be ready for them when we move south to invade. But that is a different chapter.

So - while we wait for Eli - does this change the stance on the trade?

It lessens the one major drawback of not doing the trade - there is is little they will be able to do to interfere. They will have warriors, but we can deal with those.

The other pros and cons still stand.

	12-01-2003 23:53									#9
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Sky - great thinking. So fellow team mates - now what - trade or no trade?

	13-01-2003 00:07									#10
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OK - with the new info - here's the deal.

Trade

Pros
- we get The Wheel

Cons
- we give GS a head start on producing spearmen

NO Trade

Pros
- forces them to research bronze working as opposed to Alphabet
- dealys their production of spearmen

Cons
- we don't get the wheel
- we ill be hassled by their warriors - until we kill them all.
- they know now that we have reasonably hostile intentions - before we are finished iron working and have a supply and have produced any immortals. If we do the trade - we will know soon enough. But by then - they will have spearmen in the mountains and jungles.

SO, WHAT'S IT GOING TO BE?

TRade or no trade. (no need for a poll. just post here)

	13-01-2003 00:12									#11
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No trade.

	13-01-2003 00:17									#12
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holy cow! no wonder they want iron working

	13-01-2003 00:18									#13
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Trade. We signed a deal and we need to keep up with it.

	13-01-2003 00:19									#14
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well yeah we trade them bronze. like I said earlier the availability of iron will dictate future strategy.

	13-01-2003 00:19									#15
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We offered the tech, we told them on many channels that we will accept, we cant back off now. Not without seriously damaging our reputation.

	13-01-2003 00:21									#16
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So we keep them from contacting anyone. We can isolate them.

	13-01-2003 00:23									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So we keep them from contacting anyone. We can isolate them.

That's not certain yet. The geography of the Southern and Western parts of their Civ is unknown to us.

	13-01-2003 00:29									#18
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So - do we keep our reputation intact, possibly doing nothing for us at all, or do we make it almost assured that we gain superiority over our continent?

	13-01-2003 00:56									#19
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Regarding our reputation - the out we have is that we said we would agree to the trade if there was a mutual warrior pull back to the central mountains. Now they want a look-out parked right on our doorstep. This will make it difficult in the future to move settlers and immortals south. Eventually we can kill him.

Seems to me, they want their cake and eat it too. And who's to say that when we trade bronze, they don't start right into research on iron. Maybe the Alphabet talk is all a scam.

Sky has a point about the continent. What do we care about our rep with GS, when our intent shortly is to squash them.

Hard to believe we are at a cross roads this early in the game.

I'm leaning towards - no trade. Just leaning, mind you. Keep talking guys.

	13-01-2003 01:29									#20
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Jon says :

quote: point out on the trade no trade bit that they can still contact other nations and so on also, we get both the wheel and pottery (or something else) from Lux (who is trading with another nation I bet) overall I think we want to trade (They will get bronzeworking first anyway, before we have immortals), the difference is that I am even elss in favor of the ironworking trade Jon Miller

	13-01-2003 01:36									#21
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I still think we shouldn't. Other nations will probably understand our position, and the necessity of our withdrawal from the deal.

	13-01-2003 01:36									#22
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Was just chatting with jon in mIRC - he has read the recent stuff - and his view is still to do the trade. He stresses the benefit of having the extra tech to trade with Lux.

I had better start crafting a couple of responses.

If you have not yet commented in the FA thread on the Lux response, please do so.

	13-01-2003 12:15									#23
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I am for trading Bronze. That is what we are still talking about right?


But I have my misgivings about Iron working. Like I said we will see what our situation is when we get the tech. If we can't connect to Iron giving them Iron can be dangerous. But if we can't connect to iron we will also want to keep on their good side (and research horse riding). But even if we can connect to iron it is not in our best interests to give them iron working. Especially if we plan on going to war. We can take over any cities they place in the jungle without worry of reprisals from war chariots (we have to knock out any roads they place on our first turn of war obviously). If we get pushed out of the jungle war may be necessary. We will see what happens the next 12 to 15 turns.

	13-01-2003 23:46									#24
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Trading bronze for the wheel is/was fine. But NOT iron working for alphabet.

	14-01-2003 00:02									#25
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I forgot about chariots not being able to enter jungle/mountain terrain w/ out roads. Great catch Sky!

	14-01-2003 02:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Trading bronze for the wheel is/was fine. But NOT iron working for alphabet.

Agreed!!

	14-01-2003 12:57									#27
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also another thing to note that even though we got the better of the deal with regards to tech cost (I think) according to them. They said the deal would be even with Iron Working. But not how I see it . True the tech cost would be close to even, but the wheel isn't nearly as important to us as bronze working was to them. So really they got the better end of the deal.

	15-01-2003 03:56									#28
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Yea