13-01-2003 00:34									#1
	Help a neonewb with diplomacy Enter the AD-FREE zone

Admittedly I'm wuss who plays on the third or fourth difficulty level and doesn't like killing civs because his conscience bothers him. That said, can someone help me with diplomacy? Why are AI luxuries worth more than 3 luxuries and 3 resources of mine? This is not a fair trading system (IMHO) ! This seems to be a symptom of the 'lets pick on the strongest nation' syndrome. Wouldn't a weaker nation have a strong interest in appeasing me?

This fact alone is what causes me to uninstall after every game and shelf it for a few months. I like the idea of having allies, even if I don't need them. I like the idea of trading so everyone has stuff they need. The AI makes trade, diplomacy, and peace impossible if you are superior and so mark themselves for destruction by my luxury-hungry nation. I'm very sorry for the rant, but does anyone have any suggestions?

	13-01-2003 00:54									#2
	Re: Help a neonewb with diplomacy Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by 0bsidi0n Why are AI luxuries worth more than 3 luxuries and 3 resources of mine? This is not a fair trading system (IMHO) !

You may have:
(i) more cities
(ii) more luxuries already
(iii) more marketplaces
The AI values luxuries roughly proportionally to the total number of happy faces you'd get. It might not be quite fair but at least it's rational.
If the AI were putting up a decent fight you would get more for your luxuries. They are still almost always worth buying for cash.

	13-01-2003 03:17									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's not fair. The AI is set to put a markup and values items from other AI's higher than it does yours. The higher the difficulty level, the higher the markup. It is in the editor if you care to look.

	13-01-2003 03:42									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

But it's realistic_ letting Switzerland paying the same amount of money of USA when buying oil from the saudis isn't fair at all.

Also, you may give one silk to a small country at a fixed price, and that's ok
When the huge 100-cities country asks you silks and you KNOW that they need it so badly, then it's your duty to exploit their misery

	13-01-2003 04:04									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

BTW, you are not really talking about diplomacy, but rather trading.

If the price REALLY bugs you, try gaining a tech lead and using that for luxuries. Typically the AI will run out of gold, and offer you less than the value of a tech... this at least maximizes (by virtue of defraying) the very high cost charged when the luxury will give you many happy faces.

	13-01-2003 04:42									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV It's not fair. The AI is set to put a markup and values items from other AI's higher than it does yours. The higher the difficulty level, the higher the markup. It is in the editor if you care to look.

It does with techs because they are more expensive for the human. But I only noticed a 10% difference in the trading of resources between regent and deity.
It only gives other AIs big discounts if they can't pay. This doesn't mean it values other AI's items higher as it is often the seller who is getting a worse deal (presumably unless they're selling tech for luxuries, in which case the luxuries would be valued more [or something.])

	13-01-2003 07:02									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

"But it's realistic_ letting Switzerland paying the same amount of money of USA when buying oil from the saudis isn't fair at all."

the game is too messed up. In the game, the Saudis would sell the same amount of oil the the Swiss and Americans respectively: one "square's worth".

	13-01-2003 07:41									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A luxury benefots each city, the more cities you have the more the luxury is worth. Say you buy wine, look at it as every citizen getting a bottle of plonk so if you have a large civilisation that is a great many bottles of plonk and therefore a considerable expense.

If my civilisation is 100 times bigger than my trading partner then I expect to pay more on this basis. In a recent game I had 40 large cities and France had 5 towns. IIRC I gave 4 luxuries and three resources for one luxury and it was worth it to me (relations were gracious so no cost penalty for attitude). It was only a warlord level game so it would have cost more at higher difficulty levels. France could charge such high prices because it was still good very value for me. No one else could supply that luxury. I actually would have paid even more if I had to. (I had resources and luxuries galore but France had all the fur).

	13-01-2003 07:53									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

You guys were actually very helpful! I've learned more today than I have in months. I guess the system kind of makes sense, but I'm still a little angry that AI's are biased towards hating me, but I understand why now. Thanks everyone!

	13-01-2003 09:41									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Umh, I find that at Chieftain and Warlord I can get very little for my techs or luxuries. This is because it is rare for anyone else to have any money. I consider myself lucky if I can get a lump sum of 50 gold for a tech or a luxury at those levels.

OTH At Monarch the AI civs are much larger and more prosperous so you can make good money selling techs, resources and luxuries and perhaps even maps.

The difference can be staggering. At Chieftain I might only be able to sell rubber for a lump sum of 50 gold if I'm lucky, at Monarch I may get 50 gold per turn for 20 turns!

If you are buying the price difference as you go up in difficulty levels is not so large. I actually seem to PAY more for luxuries and resources at lower levels presumably because my civ is larger in both comparative and absolute terms. Tech costs rise with difficulty levels regardless.

I think the above may help explain why beginners feel they are being screwed. The above may also help to explain why some experienced players can not see why beginners complain they are being screwed.