13-01-2003 04:09									#1
	China to Test "Western" Political Reforms In Shenzen Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

...starting this year. Could somebody help give us a clue on what the significance of this is? I'm especially interested that Jiang's man is heading it up, not any of Hu's men.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727092

	13-01-2003 04:11									#2
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*first*

Could be good if it works....if it doesn't, then I'll just say "I told u so"

	13-01-2003 04:13									#3
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I guess they realized that communism is a failure both on economic and politic field

	13-01-2003 10:46									#4
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I've been looking around Chinese news sites and haven't found any mention of this.

Weird!

(It's Shenzhen, by the way.)
Funny too how they called Singapore a "democracy".

I wouldn't hasten to call communism a political failure though. It's working fine as it is, keeping a country that is inherently unstable from falling apart like the Soviet Union.

	13-01-2003 10:55									#5
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Can such government have real power in one city. Ultimately the Communist Party will have veto power, right?

	13-01-2003 11:00									#6
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"It's working fine as it is, keeping a country that is inherently unstable from falling apart like the Soviet Union."

China is inherently unstable!? It has stayed together for thousands of years.....

	13-01-2003 11:04									#7
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"I wouldn't hasten to call communism a political failure though."

Would any right-thinking communist adopt this bastard son of the rape of democracy?

Personally, I think this would just set them up for an Iran scenario.

	13-01-2003 11:08									#8
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Shi Huangdi:
Yes, China has stayed together for thousands of years, mainly due to the draconian, tyrannic governmental measures that were first set in stone by Shi Huangdi.

DanS:
China's leaders want economic development, and hence they would do whatever is possible to accelerate that. Notice that this "democratic" government's powers are mainly economic.
As for "right-thinking communists", I'd say that China's "communists" have abandoned that word, a long time ago.

	13-01-2003 11:12									#9
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"I'd say that China's "communists" have betrayed that word, a long time ago."

I would agree. I would go further and suggest that what they are doing has no ideological foundation. Democracy's foundation is pretty simple--the rule of the majority.

	13-01-2003 11:15									#10
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Not everything needs an ideological foundation.

China floundered around for 30 years looking for "ideological foundations", and looked at what happened. The China switched to "make as much money as is possible", and look what happened instead.

	13-01-2003 11:18									#11
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They made as much money as possible?

	13-01-2003 11:22									#12
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They created labour conditions right out of Dickens' books?

	13-01-2003 11:25									#13
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20 years ago there weren't any labour conditions to speak of.

	13-01-2003 11:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Shi Huangdi: Yes, China has stayed together for thousands of years, mainly due to the draconian, tyrannic governmental measures that were first set in stone by Shi Huangdi.

Good point. China seems to be very stable under this type of government. Stabitlity isn't everything however. I assume that's the point you were making though.

	13-01-2003 11:27									#15
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China floundered around for 30 years looking for "ideological foundations", and looked at what happened.

Well, anything would look good in comparison to the choices the Chinese communists made for the first 30 years.

	13-01-2003 11:27									#16
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Well stability isn't everything.

But the other alternative is Russia + Indonesia. Not a pleasant choice.

	13-01-2003 11:28									#17
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China has also periodically split apart, the last time less than 100 years ago.

	13-01-2003 11:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DanS China floundered around for 30 years looking for "ideological foundations", and looked at what happened. Well, anything would look good in comparison to the choices the Chinese communists made for the first 30 years.

Of course.

But that was the result of ideological stubbornness.

	13-01-2003 11:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara China has also periodically split apart, the last time less than 100 years ago.

Which shows how inherently unstable China is, being about the size of Europe, twice the population, and ten times the economic inequality.

	13-01-2003 11:31									#20
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Which reminds me, China isn't completely back together yet. After all, Taiwan is still "independent."

	13-01-2003 11:34									#21
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"But that was the result of ideological stubbornness."

They just needed a better ideology to be stubborn about.

They didn't shop around for sh!t.

	13-01-2003 11:35									#22
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ch:
Yes....

point?

	13-01-2003 11:36									#23
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I'm just demonstrating your point, ransk.

	13-01-2003 11:36									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Well stability isn't everything. But the other alternative is Russia + Indonesia. Not a pleasant choice.

I agree (I think). I'm not saying they should follow the example of those nations, by any means. Actually, I don't think they are doing that badly. Just saying that stablity isn't everything. They need to do better and I think they see that.

	13-01-2003 11:37									#25
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Anyway, back to the headline of this thread, this seems like something new. I've heard about the local council experiments.

	13-01-2003 11:38									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "But that was the result of ideological stubbornness." They just needed a better ideology to be stubborn about. They didn't shop around for sh!t.

Actually, at this rate China is going, I don't understand any of the ideologies that China's trying to follow anymore.

Recently they've amended the party constitution so that instead of representing the proletariat, the "Communist" Party now represents "advanced productivity, cultural progress, and greater good." But that's just a less crude way of saying "make more money"! Doesn't sound remotely "communist" to me.

And now, democracy?! mmm... :/

	13-01-2003 11:39									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm just demonstrating your point, ransk.

oh, alright.

I apologize... I thought this was a re-start of that democracy-dictatorship debate.

	13-01-2003 11:40									#28
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"I don't understand any of the ideologies that China's trying to follow anymore."

Stamp out all other ideologies. But this is a fool's game.

	13-01-2003 11:40									#29
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DuncanK: yes, of course. Nothing can replace checks and balances.

quote: Originally posted by DanS Anyway, back to the headline of this thread, this seems like something new. I've heard about the local council experiments.

Yep... local council experiments. They've done that in both rural (villages) and urban (residents' councils) settings. But I don't think they've ever let an entire city go its own way before... but I guess there's a first for everything.

	13-01-2003 11:43									#30
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Good, they shouldn't follow ideologies. They should follow common sense. They might be on to something