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President for Term 8
This poll is closed. |
| Aggie |
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11 |
22.45% |
| Arnelos |
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19 |
38.78% |
| Aro |
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19 |
38.78% |
| Abstain/Banana |
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0 |
0% |
| Total: |
49 voters |
100% |
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie
Up to now I have ignored the half truths and distortions of Arnlelos.
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More accurately, they are reflections of my perceptions. Perception, I will readily admit, is often highly biased. That said, because something has to be the cause of a given perception, there is typically a kernel of truth even in the most biased of perceptions.
Nowhere in the entire nomination thread did you come out and fully commit yourself to the race. You made reference to not being able to do parts of the job or saying you'd only enter as a course of last resort.
Even if I were to kindly excuse the entire mess about not having to worry for popular sentiment as pure role-play, the above (what's left) still left sufficient reason to doubt that you were either fully invested in the race or were taking the responsibilities as seriously as you did the first time you ran for office.
quote:
I was hoping that whatever rl event that upset him would pass and he would apologize, but this hasn't occured. I have decided honor demands I respond.
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I'll admit that I was in an extremely foul mood having nothing to do with Apolyton.
You have my sincere apology for allowing that to be expent on attacking you.
quote:
If you look at his post you would think I am a person who never plays by the rules and does only what he wants. We all know this is untrue. Everything I have done in this game has been to help the nation. Not ONCE did I ever go against the will of the people.
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While it would be unfair to characterize you as being someone without any regard for the rules and I apologize for that characterization (it's not quite what I meant, but that's beside the point), surely you must see that willfully violating the rules you chose to uphold could easily be described as "against the will of the people" or at least many of them.
Just because a communal decision was made to let you off easy does not mean that all fully supported your willfull violation of their previously stated will without consulting them.
I think we all understand that you mean well and meant well. That's why I didn't press charges, pissed off though I was. At the same time, however, you can't very well pretend that you did nothing wrong. If you do, the voters have every reason to expect you will do it again - fail to consult with them on a major issue where you are required to consult with them.
If you're willing to pledge to consult the citizens next time as you are required and follow through with that pledge, that would remove my primary reason for running against you.
quote:
Always I have been guided by their desires. For example earlier this week, when we were bogged down in the GL issue, I looked at the constitution closely and decided it did allow for "senate chats". So I pushed this idea and soon others took up the call and it was done. I did this because we all know the greatest enemy of this game isn't other civs, it is people losing interest. He would call this not playing by the rules, I call it looking for a solution to a problem. Yet for 2 days after the chat he did NOTHING, and hid behind a"waiting for a judicial review" excuse. There was no legal challenge to the chat, yet the will of the people was thwarted. In theory this is an impeachable offense. In the very least he did not perform the duties of a leader and try to get a solution.
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I maintain that the agreement reached in the senate chat was illegal. I fully agree with the arguments of roadcage, among others, that the existence of such a senate chat whose voting did not allow for all members of the community to vote is a violation of not only the NewCon, but of a far older rule in this demogame - that all citizens have the right to vote.
I know that such an opinion is unpopular, but I happen to believe that the rule of law in cases like this is essential to curtailing the disenfranchisement of part of a democracy. If the law is unpopular and people want to change it, I strongly suggest to them that they use various methods of doing so legally.
IN FACT, I PERSONALLY POSTED MULTIPLE THREADS OFFERING DIFFERENT LEGAL METHODS OF CHANGING THE RULES TO WHAT PEOPLE WANTED.
Yet I am accused of showing no leadership.
I was only willing to knowingly violate what I felt to be the law if and only if the Court sanctioned it. That is what I am now doing. Waiting for that Court sanction is not being irresponsible and it is not impeachable. Rather, I was following the law as I knew it to exist: no senate bill authorizing the use of Seti had yet passed.
You admitted yourself that the so-called "senate chat" stood on extremely shaky legal ground and I think you know very well that it is only by completely overlooking the obvious that the Court has bowed to majority opinion in this case.
I honestly did not believe that the President was the proper person to make such a sweeping and so apparently flawed interpretation of the law... the job of interpreting law is explicitly given to the Court.
quote:
All who know me know that I do try to get solutions, some through the forums, some through chats and other times through pm's. You all know that I listen and try to find a way that as many people as possible will be satisfied. Now I ask you who has done the greater wrong, one who does something that is common sense(as I did with the MPP against rome) or one who actively goes against the will of the people. Let me assure you that I will always obey the people, as I have always done.
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"Done the greater wrong"? If holding my ground and refusing to bow to pressure to use extra-legal means to disenfranchise many of our citizens is "the greater wrong", then I'm guilty as charged.
I may believe in democracy and popular will, but I also believe in rights and my responsiblity as an officer of the law to uphold that law and respect those rights, even if I or the majority of people don't like it. There are legal means to change our rules. It's a pity that so few people have the patience to use them.
There is a difference between a civil democracy and a massocracy.
quote:
I think it is unfortunate that a president will go to such lengths of character assasination to keep his job and I hope you the people will send him a clear message that this is unacceptable.
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For the record, as I posted multiple times, I did not enter this race because I desire the job. Contrary to your accusation, I did not criticize you because I wanted to keep my job... that's extremely far from the truth.
The truth is precisely what I stated... it was my perception that no-one had SERIOUSLY entered the race when I finally felt forced to step in (having previously and honestly stated that I wouldn't enter the race unless as a means of last resort). It honestly annoyed me that no-one had yet officially entered the race when I finally did so and it didn't ease my annoyance that you and Aro both then entered "tentatively" or in jest.
I honestly believed that the job, which you well know takes an enormous amount of time from the office holder's schedule for very little reward, was being approached with insufficient seriousness by you and Aro.
Regarding Aro, my reaction was not terribly dissimilar to OPD and UnOrthOdOx's reaction to my decision to run for Vice President 3 terms back. They got the impression very early that I wasn't taking the time commitment that would be necessary with sufficient seriousness. I happen to believe they were wrong, but I'll admit that I took it MORE seriously after UnOrthOdOx raked me over the coals. I may be equally wrong about Aro, but that's beside the point.
As for you, my "character assassination" has certainly gotten you to at least address some very real issues of which you still seem to be denying. Though rude to so bluntly bring it up, I admit, I was merely voicing an issue that more than I want you to respond to before we would consider supporting you as President again. Most are far too polite to be so blunt. Normally, I would be as well.
You have my apologies for my hastiness and rudeness.
Since I've already paid the price to bring the issue out in the open, however, I think it productive on some level that at least we're now discussing it where otherwise it would have been left burried. For both of us, I will admit, it's a real issue that has real consequences. Your perceptions of me, though extremely distorted, hide as much in terms of kernels of truth as mine do about you.
EDIT: spelling, etc.
Last edited by Arnelos on 14-01-2003 at 13:41
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by OPD
I love elections like this.
I voted for Arnelos as ... |
You voted for Arnelos as you have been tainted by the Dark Side.
Sith sympathizer!
Why don't you go ahead and change your avatar to Jar Jar Binks.
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 15-01-2003 at 01:30
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Meshelic
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Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Sep 2002
time: 21:25
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[rp]
Don't be fooled by our President Arnelos, or his pompous, fear-driven statements. Such accusations against the ALP, labeling us merely as "communists" are absurd. For so-called freedom, liberty and the right to private property he blasts his opponents, seeking to dissuade the people into believing that he is the one who will save Apolyton from the so-called communist threat, a threat which only exists in the mind of our obviously insecure President....
*pause*
Coming from the man who, in fear of the formation of such a Labor Party, shamelessly denounced the laborers and the rightful gathering of The People. Who, in a moment of nervous terror, begged the ALP to merge with his populist DIA Party!
*gasp* The crowd goes deathly silent
I encourage you all to not pay heed to his self-absorbed rants. How can the People, of sound mind and spirit, feel morally inclined to vote for Arnelos when from his very own tongue has sought to squash the rightful gathering of the masses?
I urge all to think on these things, and do what you know is right. Do it for yourselves, your family, your friends,......your nation.
Thank you,
Meshelic
Chairman of the Labor Party, the party of the People
[/rp]
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mrmitchell
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heh. you're all excellent, (*splat* *splat*) but seeing that Aggie and Arnie are really throwing the mud around (*splat* *splat*) I think I'll (*splat*) vote for A--(*splat* *splat* *splat*)ro.
*splat*
Okay. (*splat*) Vote Aro, as he (*splat* *splat*) does not degrade himself to (*splat*) mud-throwing.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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[rp]
What Meshelic of the Communists tells are lies.
I did not ask for a merger with the Communist Party. Rather, because at least these Communists rightly believe in the abolition of slavery unlike the barbaric religious lunatics, I sought an alliance on that issue only.
Perhaps the Communists, knowing that the Communist government they seek will be nothing more than the slavery of the entire nation, have changed their minds about being against slavery?
In fact, I spoke AGAINST the suggestion (by others within my party) that we might absorb these malcontents into our party. The communists have no place in a party which wishes to defend our democracy.
That Meshelic would wish to spread the idea that I wanted more than simply an alliance on the issue of the abolition of slavery is understandable, of course. His communist party desperately needs whatever form of legitimacy than can get their hands on, even if it be from lies and deceit.
I hope that you, the people of Apolytonia, are smarter than to fall for plots of the Communists.
With democracy and capitalism still the law of the land, you all stand to become rich beyond your wildest dreams! Why would you abandon that for misery and depravity under a foul communist system?
[/rp]
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Meshelic
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Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Sep 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
[rp]
Perhaps the Communists, knowing that the Communist government they seek will be nothing more than the slavery of the entire nation, have changed their minds about being against slavery? |
[rp]
Another set of baseless accusations! Have the ALP done anything but promote democracy while standing behind the rights of the common workers? Have the ALP pushed for a communist form of government, in any thread, anywhere? Have the ALP gone back on their vow to do everything in their power to release the slaves?
The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is clean. 
I challenge anyone, anywhere, to search the Labor Party threads, to find any mention of overthrowing the democracy and replace it with a communist government! I challenge anyone, anywhere also to search for any evidence that the ALP as a political entity have changed their minds regarding slavery?
You will find that no such discussions, talks, or conspiracies exist. I'd like to reiterate that all these supposed "facts" exist only in the mind of Arnelos, who has presented himself as nothing but a cauldron of paranoia and disinformation.
quote:
That Meshelic would wish to spread the idea that I wanted more than simply an alliance on the issue of the abolition of slavery is understandable, of course. His communist party desperately needs whatever form of legitimacy than can get their hands on, even if it be from lies and deceit.
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Our "legitimacy" was established when the Labor Party first gathered, not to mention when the official Charter was published. Have you forgotten yourself Arnelos that you acknowledged the legitimacy of such a party by opposing it, not to mention by seeking an alliance concerning the slavery issue?
Is it required of any official party to be recognized by the DIA in order to be a party at all? Saying yes would incriminate yourself as in opposition to the will of the people, not to mention a blatant attempt to squelch the freedom of speech act.
Dear people of the nation, do not listen to this man's vile attempts to undermine the great Democracy which we are ALL representatives of! Hear his words! Are they not scornful, full of contempt?
Even by the declaring us "Communists" Arnelos has abridged the freedoms that hold dear and true in our hearts, for as Chairman I have constantly defended my small but proud Party time after time against the insurrectionist DIA forces. Count how many times I have denied being a communist, that my party is communist, that we seek to overthrow the democracy! Count them!
You will find more than enough proof that the ALP are not Communists. You will also find that I have spoken the truth here, and that my esteemed colleage, Arnelos, has manipulated and twisted the facts to his own mad design!
Look at that avatar! Is that not proof enough???
FOR the PEOPLE
Meshelic
Chairman of the Apolyton Labor Party
[end rp]
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Meshelic
[rp]
Have the ALP pushed for a communist form of government, in any thread, anywhere?
...
I challenge anyone, anywhere, to search the Labor Party threads, to find any mention of overthrowing the democracy and replace it with a communist government!
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This is too easy, I didn't even have to look beyond the front page... 
From the "Labor Party Charter & Home" Thread
quote:
Originally posted by Aro
rp mode ON/
Btw, we aren't Trotskyites (the internationalist wing of the commies. Stalin killed him. Well done.) We are pure Stalinist folks and we gonna kill anyone who... Huh? Oh… Sorry, Meshelic... I don't do this anymore, I promise!
rp mode OFF/
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quote:
Originally posted by Aro
Besides that, I'm the left-wing of my party.... A real commie! 
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[rp]
I could have looked further back into the public records to reference statements by Presidential Candidate Aro and ALP Chairman Meshelic regarding their support for communism, but the effort is unecessary. These statements were found within those public records available in their very own party headquaters!
It turns out that Aro, the candidate for the Communist Party, has said in his own words that he is a Commie and a member of the LEFT WING of even the Communist-leaning party!
You can vote for these communists or you can vote for us, the true defenders of democracy. 
[/rp]
quote:
Count how many times I have denied being a communist, that my party is communist, that we seek to overthrow the democracy! Count them!
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[rp]
No matter how many times you say it, it still doesn't make it true.
[/rp]
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14-01-2003 09:02
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