13-01-2003 22:50									#1
	Nemo-esque graphics Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

There's currently a fairly ridiculous debate raging at CivFan about the relative merits of 'hi-res' graphics over Nemo-type units:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...y=&pagenumber=1

It got me thinking - Do many people actually like Nemo-type units? (other than the obvious candidates: Anzac, Jimmywax, Case, FMK and anyone else producing tank pics).

Anyway, I've always wanted to try out this poll thingy, so here goes

	13-01-2003 23:08									#2
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I haven't voted yet. Are we talking strictly tanks here? As far as infantry, terrain, cities, and icons I like Nemo's a hell of a lot better. But for tanks and aircraft I prefer the high res style. It looks more realistic.

	13-01-2003 23:12									#3
	Remove this text

I think Alex Mor did most of the infantry graphics for Nemo's scenarios (?), so I guess I'm referring to tanks and aircraft.

	13-01-2003 23:18									#4
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Well I'm still not going to vote.
It also depends on the context. If you made a WW2 scenario and used Nemo graphics for everything but tanks and aircraft, the high res stuff might seem out of place. Maybe I'm wrong here but I just can't picture Second Front using high res.

	13-01-2003 23:31									#5
	Tired of ads?

Actually, I voted Civ tank for one reason.
You can't make the graphics look real due to the amount of pixels (and anyway, this is a game )

So the next best thing in my book is to make it look good. Civ 2 original and Nemo, hands down, make better representations than shrunken photos as far as aesthetic taste goes.

	13-01-2003 23:44									#6
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I read the civfanatics thread and must say that it's nothing else than ridiculous. What is it with personal opinions and tastes that screws people up in that way?

	13-01-2003 23:54									#7
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I voted for Nemo-esque for obvious reasons, I cannot stand to play a scenario when the designer has gone back and forth between Isometric (nemo) and so-called Hi-Res (usually dark blobs with white outlines). As I have stated before I am a very visual person and can only seem to enjoy a scenario if it looks appealing. I am okay with Hi-Res if it is done right, i.e. the images are clear, don't have stray pixels everywhere, and fit in with the other graphics. I have seen some that look good and the designer obviously took some time to either make or find the correct gfx for the job.

P.S. I don't like the generic term Nemo. There are too many good gfx designers that work in the Isometric style. I love to see Bebro's and Favoured Flight's work. They both have their own style as do several other designers.

	14-01-2003 00:39									#8
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Nemo-esque all the way!

	14-01-2003 02:51									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jimmywax I voted for Nemo-esque for obvious reasons, I cannot stand to play a scenario when the designer has gone back and forth between Isometric (nemo) and so-called Hi-Res (usually dark blobs with white outlines).

I couldn't agree more

As long as a scenarios graphic style is consistant I don't really care what style of graphics was used.

	14-01-2003 02:58									#10
	Invalid Session error, yet again. Can't vote. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

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	14-01-2003 03:02									#11
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I much prefer the Nemo-esque style of unit graphics. The so-called "high-res" stuff just looks awful. I'm with JW; a scenario has to have visual appeal or I won't bother with it.

	14-01-2003 03:14									#12
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Whaaaaat!? Nemo looks okay, but that's in the past. Hi-Res is the future! Look at ZWK, it looks tons better than Ref Front!

	14-01-2003 03:44									#13
	Got spare money?

I would like to argue that the Isometric "Nemo" style units are the high resolution or Hi-Res units.

The "Nemo" units are much nicer looking, they look like the actual units, and they are much easier to see which unit is which.

Pap

	14-01-2003 04:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by mordhiem Whaaaaat!? Nemo looks okay, but that's in the past. Hi-Res is the future! Look at ZWK, it looks tons better than Ref Front!

Mordheim: what have you been smoking lately?

	14-01-2003 04:52									#15
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I hate hi-res graphics for two reasons:
1) they look like crap
2) they are not isometric

I like Nemo graphics for two reasons:
1) they look okay
2) they are isometric

I would also like to credit Nemo with inspiring (or inventing) my style of city artwork.

	14-01-2003 05:36									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

I prefer Nemo-style graphics too.
Not all Hi-Res graphics are unappealing though, just far too many for my tastes.

	14-01-2003 09:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by mordhiem Whaaaaat!? Nemo looks okay, but that's in the past. Hi-Res is the future! Look at ZWK, it looks tons better than Ref Front!

Mord, you should know better than to post here at POLY about Hi-Res. This is the sacred home of Nemo units. Just look at the sticky unit threads, they are not going to admit that the huge body of work the've accumulated is ugly.

	14-01-2003 09:50									#18
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It seems that we have visitors from CF's S.M.W.N.D.A.A. (Scenario Makers With No Discernable Artistic Ability) I hear their members are very numerous over at Civ Fanatics. It is said that they are an offshoot of the "Hi-Res" church, founded by Tim Smith. But unlike Rev. Smith, who was a professional artist, this cult has only mastered the art of photo reduction, resulting in a mish mash of scales, perspectives and styles. Rather than admit their doctrinal errors, this cult, under the leadership of the mysterious and charismatic "Koby", has attacked the knowledge left to us by Saint Nemo and by implication, that of the Prophet Alex of Moscow. Beware of their false teachings, lest you place your mortal soul in danger. Repent sinners, before it is too late!

	14-01-2003 10:06									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Reactions in threads like this generally discourage any scenario making at all. I feel it is safe to say the average scenario designer does not have 1000+ hours (the time Nemo claimed to have invested into Red Front) a year to spend on drawing pretty little units, let alone fine tuning the rest of their scenario's details. There is no reward a scenario designer gets for his labor other than a praise or two from fans, so it is already hard enough to justify the amount of time and energy spent into a scenario that meets our expectations. I have no problem with hi-res. Sometimes high res can be better, sometimes it can't. But with statements like this don't help:

quote: I read the civfanatics thread and must say that it's nothing else than ridiculous. What is it with personal opinions and tastes that screws people up in that way?

quote: I much prefer the Nemo-esque style of unit graphics. The so-called "high-res" stuff just looks awful. I'm with JW; a scenario has to have visual appeal or I won't bother with it.

quote: Mordheim: what have you been smoking lately?

quote: I hate hi-res graphics for two reasons: 1) they look like crap 2) they are not isometric

some of us figure why bother? (thats why I quit scenario design until someone designs pretty pictures for me) It doesn't matter how good of a scenario we can put together with innovative ideas because it doesn't look as pretty as Red Front. Nobody will play our scenarios and we lose what little reward we get from our projects. Our only other option is to rip from Alex, Nemo, and Bebro and then every scenario produced is a carbon copy of something thats already been made, because graphics are oh so more important than everything else. A few of us like high-res, and it's a convient time saver. But the Nemo-fanatics beat the meek voice of high res down, and thats wrong. Everyone has their own opinion. I know that nobody stated their opinions in this thread with the intent to offend or discourage, but you should be wary of the effects of what you say.

Nemo and Alex are gone, and Bebro's just one man... If everyone demands nemoesque/isometric styles, there will be no future for Civilization II scenarios.

	14-01-2003 10:35									#20
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MJ, both the thread at CF and here are all in fun, with lots of good natured insults on both sides. It's the "blobs" vs. the "cartoons". We don't know who will win, only that Tokyo will be destroyed!

	14-01-2003 13:10									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by techumseh MJ, both the thread at CF and here are all in fun, with lots of good natured insults on both sides. It's the "blobs" vs. the "cartoons". We don't know who will win, only that Tokyo will be destroyed!

Exactly

MagyarCrusader: I hadn't meant to cause anyone offense with this poll - it was just a bit of fun. For what its worth, my own opinion is that both sides of the argument have a point: Nemo-esque graphics (what a pretentious term) do kind of look cartoonish, and some 'photo-realistic' units look like a bit of a dogs breakfast. I've got no strong preference for either hand-drawn isometric or ripped graphics as long as they're done with a bit of care and attention, and a uniform style is maintained throughout the scenario. As to whether the presence of Nemo or BeBro-style unit graphics dissuade me from playing a scenario, then that's simply not the case; (stand by for vomit-inducing sycophancy) your WW1 and WW2 scenarios are still my favourites. I will admit to having the arrogance to replace some of the graphics, though.

More toadying: please don't give up on scenario design; the really important qualities in a good scenario are playability and fun, and an ability to capture the essense of a particular historical era or fantasy setting. For me graphics are always a secondary issue, and I can always replace units and terrain files if I'm that bothered by them. What I can't do is produce a good scenario.

My motivation for starting this thread, other than winding people up, was simply to see how many people actually liked the isometric unit style. I'd stupidly thought that this was everyone (arrogance again!) but the thread at CivFan has got some really good 'hi-res' graphics posted on it and it's given me second thoughts. As for the Nemo-fanatics beating the meek voice of hi-res down, I'd say that the CivFan thread has squashed any possibility of that.

Anyway, Go Cartoon graphics

	14-01-2003 13:37									#22
	ROFL!!! Increase Your PM Length

@ Tech.

	14-01-2003 21:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader It doesn't matter how good of a scenario we can put together with innovative ideas because it doesn't look as pretty as Red Front. Nobody will play our scenarios and we lose what little reward we get from our projects. Our only other option is to rip from Alex, Nemo, and Bebro and then every scenario produced is a carbon copy of something thats already been made, because graphics are oh so more important than everything else.

Not really, if I hear a scenario is good but can't tell whether a unit is supposed to be a tank or a P-47, I will simply changed the graphics to fit my taste. I think just about everyone does this.

quote: Nemo and Alex are gone, and Bebro's just one man... If everyone demands nemoesque/isometric styles, there will be no future for Civilization II scenarios.

Have faith my son, there are many to pickup the torch and the saints work will not be in vain.

	14-01-2003 22:25									#24
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Mike, your inclusion of my statement in your post shows me that I haven't expressed my thoughts the way I meant to. I agree with your statement. There's nothing more I can say about that.

	15-01-2003 00:26									#25
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Actually, I don't have anything against scaling down drawing and 3d renderings. What I object to are photographic reductions.

I am not the only one holding that position. Mac OS X's interface guidelines explicitly forbid the creation of icons from photos yet encourage photorealism. IMHO, the style introduced by Nemo and refined by others gives the best and most civ-like result for that.

Mike, I have played more turns in your scenarios than in Red Front and 2194 put together. There is nothing wrong in scrounging the graphics of others; scenarios do not become carbon copies as long as you scrounge from many different scenarios and collections.

	15-01-2003 04:17									#26
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Indeed my wits are as sharp as my sense of humor.

	16-01-2003 01:56									#27
	Got spare money?

I CAN NOT STAND the Hi-Res stuff, I just cant play with it. Some of the terrain was O.K., I guess but the units look wrong to me. I dont really like the basic microprose style, either. Any scenario that I download that doesn't have "Nemoesque" graphics gets a whole new set (w/apoligies to JB and H.Thompson) - even if I have to make them myself. I posted some of my collections here, oh, about three months ago. Bebro, Alex, Nemo, yeah, the poll results do not surprise me. SL is prob. the "Nemoesque" capital of the Civ community and, as one (if not THE) most active scenario "factories" SL will insure the triumph of Nemoesqe graphics in the future. Time will tell, but that is my guess.

	16-01-2003 06:24									#28
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Nemo... it's just the right cross between a half-'cartoony' looking graphic and something you can actually recognise properly.

	16-01-2003 06:29									#29
	Remove this text

damnation! A double post!

	16-01-2003 06:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi Mord, you should know better than to post here at POLY about Hi-Res. This is the sacred home of Nemo units. Just look at the sticky unit threads, they are not going to admit that the huge body of work the've accumulated is ugly.

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