14-01-2003 11:00									#1
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I was reading this -

"Scenario 3; Diplomatic contact, and (at least) Non-aggression treaty (up to alliance). No problem here, we're not shooting at each other, so we can pass each other freely. Note that this also applies to colony ships. In other words, you're never promted to choose hostile/neutral action, nor are the ships coming through even required to "stop" in the system - which they do in just about all other cases. "

- here -

Hummmm.. I wonder if this means that I`m in danger of being overrun and recolonized by my 'allies' if I sign a non aggression pact with anyone (kind of like some Moo2 games I`ve played)? Bah! I think this needs to be fixed so that you cannot be recolonized.

I have heard something about by building a government DEA you 'lay claim' to a system but I`m not so sure about this.. anyone have any info?

	14-01-2003 21:19									#2
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Recall that the other guys will have different environmental tolerances than you, so they will not be likely to settle anything you would want for your starting race. In fact, it's GOOD for you that they backfill for you at least some, so you have an easy target in your own space to conquer, netting you some foreign pop you can use to settle other similar worlds elsewhere.

	14-01-2003 21:24									#3
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I think it depends on how trustworthy your allies are. If the AI can be trused in moo3 not to betray or cancel alliances on a whim (like they seem to do in other games), then it would make sense that you'd let your allies colonize planets that are unsuitable to you.

Plus, they would make nice citizens in *your* empire. . . .

But consider if humans met a race that wanted to colonize jupiter and saturn. Would we mind? We can't use them after all. And what if they offered us two earthlike planets in exchange? I think such a trade would bind allies closer together.

	14-01-2003 23:21									#4
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The entire idea is around the fact that aliens have different environment preferences. This is why there would be drawing power into my space - all those unused gas planets for the Eoladi (or some such)! Then after they`ve colonized deep into my space and conviently build a mob center near my homeworld the non agression pact (doesn`t even have to be an alliance) is inexplicably broken. Oh what fun that would be!

My philosophy is that when my people put the first flag down every other planet is mine weither I can use it or not. Maybe I will back fill it when I have some Eoladi in my dominion, not when I have to conquer them to keep the integrity of my borders secure.

I`m not even sure I`d want my close, trusted allies having colonies in my systems. I`m just too territorial for that lol.

	14-01-2003 23:44									#5
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I wonder if you can demand systems in MOO3 like in 2. I wouldn't mind allowing colonization of a world I couldn't if I could negotiate a trade or just outright demand it a little later on. I noticed in MOO2 that it was easiest to demand one right after colonization; will the same hold true here?

	15-01-2003 01:03									#6
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quote: The entire idea is around the fact that aliens have different environment preferences. This is why there would be drawing power into my space - all those unused gas planets for the Eoladi (or some such)! Then after they`ve colonized deep into my space and conviently build a mob center near my homeworld the non agression pact (doesn`t even have to be an alliance) is inexplicably broken. Oh what fun that would be!

From a psychological perspective, i think you have a deep seated distrust of computer allies. Sharing systems leads to shared interests, further solidifying alliances. If both myself and the eoladi have important colonies in the Zantax system, and i'm invaded by the saurians, its in the eoladi's best interest to help me. Because them lizards ain't going to make very good neighbors.

Wouldn't you rather have the might of the elodi fleet coming to your rescue in a shared system, then merely attacking the saurians on their own borders? I know I would.

quote: My philosophy is that when my people put the first flag down every other planet is mine weither I can use it or not. Maybe I will back fill it when I have some Eoladi in my dominion, not when I have to conquer them to keep the integrity of my borders secure.

Do you consider this philosophy legal for the AI? In other words, do you restrict your colonists from moving into unused planets in your neighbors systems?

My own philosophy has always been to move into any unused space, and not really mind when my allies colonize planets in my space. First come, first served. Of course, its a different matter for my enemies.

quote: I wonder if you can demand systems in MOO3 like in 2. I wouldn't mind allowing colonization of a world I couldn't if I could negotiate a trade or just outright demand it a little later on. I noticed in MOO2 that it was easiest to demand one right after colonization; will the same hold true here?

Hmm. Doesn't seem to unlikely. I wonder if you can trade colonists directly, perhaps I could sell some conquered saurians to the Eoladi in exchange for some of their conquered silicons. Rather an immoral way to treat your own people though.

	15-01-2003 01:13									#7
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quote: From a psychological perspective, i think you have a deep seated distrust of computer allies.

I think anyone who has played Moo2 and tried to be the nice guy will find this distrust well founded. Of all the times I used to play Moo2 only once did an alliance last throughout the game and not end up with one of us backstabbing each other.

After awhile I decided to never ever enter an alliance with the computer no matter what. This decision carries over into some other strategy games I`ve played too like CTP2. In all games I`ve played it is my experience that the AI is generally untrustworthy.

quote: Wouldn't you rather have the might of the elodi fleet coming to your rescue in a shared system, then merely attacking the saurians on their own borders? I know I would.

Yeah that`d be nice if it would happen. The thing is I don`t have to be their ally for them to start backfilling my systems. All you have to have is a non aggression pact. So under this condition maybe they`d just look the other way while I was decimated. then send in their fleets to pick up the pieces (and solidify their control of the system without declaring war on me).. and from what I heard I wouldn`t be suprised to see this actually happen in the game. Alot of the diplomacy seems to be smoke an mirrors.

quote: Do you consider this philosophy legal for the AI? In other words, do you restrict your colonists from moving into unused planets in your neighbors systems?

Yes.. unless I plan on conquering it..

quote: I wonder if you can trade colonists directly, perhaps I could sell some conquered saurians to the Eoladi in exchange for some of their conquered silicons. Rather an immoral way to treat your own people though.

What? Morals? Whats that?

	15-01-2003 01:23									#8
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quote: I think anyone who has played Moo2 and tried to be the nice guy will find this distrust well founded. Of all the times I used to play Moo2 only once did an alliance last throughout the game and not end up with one of us backstabbing each other.

Ok, you definetly have a point. But I'm trying to be hopeful for moo3. Its possible that kindness and loyalty won't be viewed as a weekness by the AI, (though I admit, rather unlikely).

quote: Yeah that`d be nice if it would happen. The thing is I don`t have to be their ally for them to start backfilling my systems. All you have to have is a non aggression pact. So under this condition maybe they`d just look the other way while I was decimated. then send in their fleets to pick up the pieces (and solidify their control of the system without declaring war on me).. and from what I heard I wouldn`t be suprised to see this actually happen in the game. Alot of the diplomacy seems to be smoke an mirrors.

True. A non-aggression pack really doesn't guarentee any loyalty, and we can't count on the AI to always recognize whats in their best interest. Heck we can't even count on real life countires to recognize whats in their own best interest.

quote: What? Morals? Whats that?

I think its that thing you're supposed to pretend to have, so your people don't revolt. . .


Territorial recognition in moo3 will probably be based on planets. I asssume space is still considered to be international "waters," and actual territory is treated more like islands in an occean.

I think giving the discoverer some sort of legal claim on a planet, would be interesting. And it would lead to more deals in the senate (land trading). Naturally, one could also ignore the claims on the discoverer i suppose.

This would put a much higher importance on initial scouting though.


But I really don't think deep penetration of your empire by AI colonists is going to be a problem. though I am assuming that there is still travel limits based on distance from a friendly planet? Or has this been cut?

	15-01-2003 01:30									#9
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I`m pretty sure there is no 'fuel reach' limit or anything in Moo3. From what I`ve heard it just costs more to maintain your fleet the further away from your space it is.

Hmmm.. guess we`ll just have to see what happens in the game and reserve our judgement. I`ve also seen that the AI is occasionally ambiliviant towards having colonies bombarded, invaded, and ships destroyed.. maybe they won`t mind if I build colony ship nets and send crack teams of battletoids to their colonies in my space?

	15-01-2003 02:00									#10
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quote: Hmmm.. guess we`ll just have to see what happens in the game and reserve our judgement. I`ve also seen that the AI is occasionally ambiliviant towards having colonies bombarded, invaded, and ships destroyed.. maybe they won`t mind if I build colony ship nets and send crack teams of battletoids to their colonies in my space?

One empire's Eoladi colony is another empire's weapon testing facility.

	15-01-2003 03:39									#11
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I also tend to mistrust the AI, because of bad experiences in Civ-Type Games (and of course MOO 2)

But I' ll give the AI a chance to convince me of the opposite

btw.
there might be an interesting question concerning shared Systems and Alliances.
What if I am Race A, and have an Alliance with Race B and we have both colonies and System Ships in the Sol System.
I´m at war with Race C and this race has an alliance with Race B.

Now a Battlefleet of Race C enters the System. I choose to attack the fleet with my System-Ships, because else they would threaten to blockade my Colonies or take the next Starlane to Alpha Centauri (where I have major Shipyards).

So, if I attack The Fleet of Race C, how will the System Ships of Race B react?
Will they help Race B, cause I am the Attacker and they have an alliance with C, will they help me, because I have also an Alliance with Race B and we share a system, or will they completely stay out of the battle?

	15-01-2003 06:09									#12
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What you're talking about shouldn't work. If you're allied with B and you're at war with C, how can B and C remain allied? B needs to pick a side.

	15-01-2003 06:38									#13
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They probably would pick a side, or they might just let you be steam rolled over and remain you 'allies', in which case you should give them the boot. *shrugs*

	15-01-2003 06:45									#14
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In MOO2 they'd keep the alliances but stay out of conflicts involving the two. You could try to force your ally to drop your adversary but if they didn't, they'd still be allied with both of you. Hopefully that's been addressed in MOO3.

	15-01-2003 06:56									#15
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Well its possible in quite a bunch of Games to (MoO2, Smacx, PaxImperia etc.)
In that Games its possible because you can Time the Meetings of Nations/Races so that it for example could be possible for B to ally you and C without you both seeing each other?
Then A(you) and C meet declare War and mhh nothing should happen. I guess AI/you would be coming to Call B to Join the war as it does in MoO2 and THEN dissolve the Alliance if B doesnt agree. ?


/mhh Firstmover Advantage

	15-01-2003 09:51									#16
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Yeah, there are games that let you ignore your alliances, but several force you into war. Civ 3 does that I believe.

Whats the point of an alliance if you don't actually have to obey it? It becomes meaningless. So, I hope that Moo3 either forces you to obey the alliance, or cancel it. Otherwise its too easy to take advantage of the computer.

	15-01-2003 09:56									#17
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being used to the civ2 AI, i find the concept of a loyal AI ally completely alien to me.

	15-01-2003 10:12									#18
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Being used to almost any game AI, I'm used to them betraying me right and left. The only one that ever seemed to be vaguely trustworthy was when you subjugated a pop in SMAC. I had never seen any of them betray me before, though in theory I suppose they could have.

I'm hoping that one can have more erstwhile alliances in Moo3, and that I can finally be the unstable one that occasionally causes massive genocide on a most-favored nation.

	15-01-2003 10:22									#19
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while it would be really cool to have a decent AI for once, i was really looking forward to playing PBEM, all that real time combat doesn't interest me.

	15-01-2003 10:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by kalbear The only one that ever seemed to be vaguely trustworthy was when you subjugated a pop in SMAC. I had never seen any of them betray me before, though in theory I suppose they could have.

Try having two ideologically opposed vassals, or a spy one (Datajack Rose.. ARGH how I despised her).They will declare war on each other and refuse to be pacified then you`ll have to pick a side. A spy can turn a vassal against you too somehow. All in all quite annoying.

	15-01-2003 23:14									#21
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quote: I'm hoping that one can have more erstwhile alliances in Moo3, and that I can finally be the unstable one that occasionally causes massive genocide on a most-favored nation

Yeah, I hope the alliances actually mean something. Unfortunately, we'll probably be stuck with the same benedict arnolds.

	16-01-2003 00:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo Yeah, I hope the alliances actually mean something. Unfortunately, we'll probably be stuck with the same benedict arnolds.

I don't have a problem with that. Just let me keep the alliance alive long enough to plant a few dozen spies so I can wreak unholy armageddon on the SOB when he decides to leave.

	16-01-2003 02:01									#23
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As I understand it there are penalties for attacking your allies........

Each race you meet has a popularity level with your own people. If you launch a suprise attack on an ally your people will suffer unrest as they cry out. "Why did you do that to the poor Nommo? They were our friends!"

Also you might have to be careful about what sort of reactions your actions may provoke in the Orion Senate. They can apparently cast votes that will destroy your diplomatic agreements and trade relations with all the races in the Senate.

	16-01-2003 04:21									#24
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My dream would be an AI which is as trustworthy as the AI in Europa Universalis 2.

It is the only Game, where I really don´t mind, if my allies march their troops across my territory, cause they would suffer severe internal (Unrests) and external (severe negative diplomatic effects) penalties, if they would attack me (and aside from this they would first have to besiege my province some month, which would buy me enoughn time, to bring in reinforcements from neighbouring Provinces)

	16-01-2003 09:37									#25
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A great AI would help a lot....but right...like when you needed help in MOOII, and an enemy would come bomb a planet, your ally would then settle on that planet.

	16-01-2003 11:16									#26
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quote: Each race you meet has a popularity level with your own people. If you launch a suprise attack on an ally your people will suffer unrest as they cry out. "Why did you do that to the poor Nommo? They were our friends!" Also you might have to be careful about what sort of reactions your actions may provoke in the Orion Senate. They can apparently cast votes that will destroy your diplomatic agreements and trade relations with all the races in the Senate.

This sounds entertaining, to say the least. It would certainly be nice if the enemy empire were to collapse into riots after they betrayed our alliance.

	16-01-2003 11:23									#27
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Hmmm.. maybe they could split into a civil war? That`d be lovely. Half with you against the half that is against you lol. If that would happen I`d probably give any land grabs back to my allies though so it would kind of suck still. Blah.

	16-01-2003 21:16									#28
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In moo2 I often gave captured planets back to their owners when I got done with the war. Unless they were strategic (or they'd really pissed me off). It made the games last a bit longer, and was more fun.

	17-01-2003 09:14									#29
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IIRC, this was addressed on the IG forums by a beta. What was said is that once you build a goverment seat (or some such) that you lay claim to the system.

But yes, I NEVER ALLY with the AI... I'm gonna give diplomacy a chance in Moo3, but that will be in my "Test Game".

	17-01-2003 09:56									#30
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I thought I had seen that. Thanks for the verification. Perhaps I won`t have to thoughtlessly genocide all my friends now that they`ll know to keep out of my space.