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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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Will they or will we research mysticism? Please clarify, and I will put up a general Trade thread tonight.
(edit: I put it up already. Please add the plan to it)
Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 16-01-2003 at 14:00
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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From Beta to Me
quote:
Part 1 of 2
Greetings CalcII and Trip of Lux.
It has been awhile since we last talked. If I recall correctly, our last conversation centred around our mutual misunderstanding of the tech trading arrangement between our two nations. We of Vox clearly see it as a longer term arrangement, whereas you of Lux see it as a series of 'equal' trades, with the definition of equal to be worked out as trades proceed.
My intention is not to aggravate the debate, but to give you some idea of where we are coming from and propose a solution. I have attached two previous pieces of correspondence received from Lux. They might help explain our position somewhat.
Important Message from Lux Invicta
Greetings, BetaHound! I hope you got my message about our interest in establishing a possible tech agreement for the future. I have just spoke with Trip, and he seems to love the idea of helping each other in the tech race against other civilization. After all, what better than to have the two scientific civ in this game to stick together? The future looks bright to me, Lux and Vox, as their scientists cooperate to advance this world.
....
Which leads to this. Trip and I feel, according to our current knowledge of Voxian's understanding of the world, that as soon as their wiseman are finished with the production of this better alloy which you call iron, the best choice for next research topic would be Mysticism I am sure your wiseman considered this possibility. It is the next step up in the tree with ceremonial burial . To tell you the truth, our wiseman wants to learn this secret ourself, but the funding is limited that Mysticism doesn't come up as a priority for our nation. We need to learn secrets with more pressing needs, which we will share with you, if you only cooperate with us in researching this tech for us.
Last but not least, We would like to know just how much turn it will take for you to finish Iron working. Perhaps we can see who can finish faster and help out the other? It's just a thought looming on my mind, but I'd appreciate it if you reveal us this information, so that we can better decid and plan the tech trades, should you agree to take part in this wonderful co-operative research agreement.
Thanks!~
Calc
end of part1
Part 2 of 2
As you can see, we have alot to offer you. We have no desire to withhold any strategically valuable tech to you, since we feel very safe with the people of Vox. Our natural boundaries provide little to dispute over and our common heritage of being latin-decent as well as common love for science makes Vox one of our favorite. If we can cooperate in tech buddying, it would be to your best interest since we have so much to offer you as of now. Please take serious consideration in planning mysticism as your next technological project. I would also like to hear what you guys want to work out for us recieving mysticism as soon as you guys discover it. We are open to suggestions, and we are very lenient right now, so please take advantage and accept this proposal.
I wish to hear from you again.
Calc
To us - it is clear from these messages that the deal was intended to be long-term. We also undertook Mysticism somewhat at your direction, on the understanding of this longer term deal. Mysticism and the gold we have provided for pottery and 11 turns of iron-working is clearly not a fair deal. And we acknowledge that the earlier deal of gold for pottery and 11 turns of iron working was not fair either.
So - a few points to consider. The 11 turns of iron working should be even further discounted. It was clearly in your best interest as well to get Vox researching Mysticism as soon as possible. There was some benefit to us in getting it early - but to be honest - 11 turns was not a matter of life and death for Vox.
Also - we still want to pursue the longer term deal. But we have reached somewhat of an impasse. Mysticism will be completed in 5 turns.
You must admit that us turning Mysticism over to you in return for the techs provided earlier is not a fair deal. You say we agreed to it - in fact we did. I have re-read all the correspondence. BUT THAT AGREEMENT WAS PREDICATED UPON A LONGER TERM ARRANGEMENT AND THE NEXT TECH YOU RESEARCHED (AND IT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE THAT YOU NEVER REVEALED YOUR RESEARCH PATH TO US) BEING PROVIDED TO VOX.
So, my proposal is this. We will provide Mysticism in 5 turns as we said we would. Vox is a nation of its word. However, to balance the books, in return, you will provide us with Warrior Code ( a first tier tech), and 15 gold, and 1 gold per turn (total 35 gold).
We will then proceed as you have suggested - on a deal by deal basis. We are still very keen on maintaining positive and long-term relations with Lux. But we do need to find a way past this early hurdle our realationship faces.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerest regards, BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli
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So basically the overall picture is We give them pottery, WC, partial IW, 15 gold and 1 gpt for Mysticism, 10 gold and 1gpt. If you play with algebra and cancel same stuff from both equation its simply =
Mysticism = Pottery, WC, 5 gold and partial IW.
This doesnt sound good to me. Unless its Mysticism = Pottery, WC. Then I'd compromise to that. Which means we still need to be compensated for partial IW part. Im gonna request them to think ahead on deducting some gold on their offer to make compensation for the partial IW.
Last edited by Zero on 02-02-2003 at 08:26
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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Post waiting to be sent to Beta:
From calc to Beta
quote:
EDIT: PM has been scrapped and NOT sent. |
Last edited by Zero on 05-02-2003 at 04:54
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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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Surprise. He does not have that proof. But he sent me this:
quote:
Hi BFM.
A first tier tech is one in the first row of the ancient era, or the left hand column in the F6 screen. The idea is that a first tier tech is one that many civs have already, and that many got from barbarian huts. In other words, despite the beaker cost, they are of lesser value.
The two relevant messages from Lux are the ones I sent. I agree that neither says 'we will give you our next tech'. But they clearly refer to the longer term deal, including having Lux tell us what WE should research next. We went along with the spirit and intent of the deal, on the assumption that you would research another tech and then we would trade.
There are two ways of looking at such an arrangement - the first is what Calc has called 'socialistic'. Under this arrangement all techs are shared with the other party as soon as they become available. And research paths are co-ordinated to make sure there is no duplication of effort. This is the arranagement we thought we had entered into. If you read the two messages received from Calc with this approach in mind - you will see where we were on a different page than you. Partcularly the note below where Calc says he wants to hear what we would like in return for mysticism.
The other way of looking at the arrangement is on a trade-by-trade basis. Which I now understand is the way Calc and Trip were looking at it. But under that arrangement, the first deal was not good for you, and the second - ie we turn over mysticism to even out that past deal - is definitely not good for us. Now - to even the books, I made a proposal - Warrior Code, a first tier tech, and 35 gold. (15 now, and 1gpt).
I trust this makes it clearer as to where we were and are coming from on this. Don't hesitate to contact me if you need further clarifiaction.
Cheers! ... Beta.
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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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Calc, I do not know if you sent your message or not.
If not, I'm planning to send this. Let me know what you think about it!
(yes - I am willing to give them Warrior Code if that helps)
quote:
Hi BH,
Thank you for your message. I can see now how we were on different pages in the big trade book. That is bad. Bad for you and bad for us, since it causes confusion and yields little trade.
You say that - evaluating trade by trade - the deal of giving IW to you was bad for us. You're right.
You also say that the deal of giving Myst to us is bad for you. Again, you're right.
But only if you look at each trade individually.
I feel that Vox and Lux need to be in a long-term trade relationship. Not a 'socialistic' one as you call it. But one in which both civs tell each other what they are researching (themselves) and then work out a deal. This can be done on a one-to-one basis, with gold to make up the difference between techs of different values.
In this light, let's evaluate the deals. First, let me stress that the Pottery deal is one that was conducted outside of the IW and Myst deals. We agreed to sell it to you for some gold, and I think that this was certainly not overpaid.
Then, the Myst for IW deal. We saved you 11 turns of research on IW, for the promise of getting Myst. We took a risk there. Although we feel that this is a good deal for us, we will keep you to the promise you made: to adhere to your part of the deal and send us the secret of Mysticism. In return, we will teach you the secret of Warrior Code and tell you what we are currently researching to pursue a continuation of our relationship. Your proposal of having us pay additional gold will not win support amongst our people, and I will therefore not waste time discussing it. I am hereby already compensating you more than a number of Lux citizens think is necessary.
My plans for the future are as follows: we tell each other what we are researching, and try to research different branches of the tech tree. Then, we trade techs on a 1-to-1 basis, with an amount of gold to balance the book. Let me know what you think about this and how we can come to a good formula for the amount of gold.
(edit) I also have another option for a trade for right now. We can get you in contact with the mighty Roleplay team, if you get us in contact with Gathering Storm. Let me know what you think about this one! (/edit)
I hope we can settle our differences, and look towards a bright Lux-Vox-future!
BFM
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Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 07-02-2003 at 00:58
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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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Sent this:
quote:
Hi BH,
Thank you for your message. I can see now how we were on different pages in the big trade book. That is bad. Bad for you and bad for us, since it causes confusion and yields little trade.
You say that - evaluating trade by trade - the deal of giving IW to you was bad for us. You're right.
You also say that the deal of giving Myst to us is bad for you. Again, you're right.
But only if you look at each trade individually.
I feel that Vox and Lux need to be in a long-term trade relationship. Not a 'socialistic' one as you call it. But one in which both civs tell each other what they are researching (themselves) and then work out a deal. This can be done on a one-to-one basis, with gold to make up the difference between techs of different values.
In this light, let's evaluate the deals. First, let me stress that the Pottery deal is one that was conducted outside of the IW and Myst deals. We agreed to sell it to you for some gold, and I think that this was certainly not overpaid.
Then, the Myst for IW deal. We saved you 11 turns of research on IW, for the promise of getting Myst. We took a risk there. Although we feel that this is a good deal for us, we will keep you to the promise you made: to adhere to your part of the deal and send us the secret of Mysticism. In return, we will teach you the secret of Warrior Code and tell you what we are currently researching to pursue a continuation of our relationship. Your proposal of having us pay additional gold will not win support amongst our people, and I will therefore not waste time discussing it. I am hereby already compensating you more than a number of Lux citizens think is necessary.
My plans for the future are as follows: we tell each other what we are researching, and try to research different branches of the tech tree. Then, we trade techs on a 1-to-1 basis, with an amount of gold to balance the book. Let me know what you think about this and how we can come to a good formula for the amount of gold.
I also have another option for a trade for right now. We can get you in contact with the mighty Roleplay team, if you get us in contact with Gathering Storm. Let me know what you think about this one!
I hope we can settle our differences, and look towards a bright Lux-Vox-future!
BFM
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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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Nothing yet.
EDIT: had a chat with Trip, Beta and JonMiller. They agreed to the Warrior Code - Myst deal and will get back to us within 1 turn about the Contacts deal.
Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 10-02-2003 at 01:39
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:25
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This is the treaty we have with Vox:
quote:
The Lux Invicta team and Vox Controli team hereby agree to all of the following:
- On the turn of 1550 BC, the Vox Controli team hereby agrees to send the Lux Invicta team a trade offering the city "Portia" with the status of "ACCEPTED" when sent.
- This city will be held by the Lux Invicta team for an undetermined period of time until after Lux Invicta has built a new city on another continent or landmass, or later than that as otherwise agreed to by Vox Controli. When this aspect of the contract expires and the Lux Invicta team is set to relinquish control of "Portia", the Vox Controli team is hereby permitted to declare war on the Lux Invicta team, and regain control of the city. After this, the teams will then make peace at the earliest opportunity.
- During the time of occupation of this city, the Lux Invicta team is hereby prohibited from settling any new cities on the continent upon which the Vox Controli team resides, unless agreed to by Vox Controli. They will not give possession of this city to any other team during the contract period, and will return the city to Vox Controli control via the process described above only at the conclusion of this treaty. During possession of this city, Lux Invicta agrees to produce at least one worker and to use that worker to either remove jungle from, and/or make improvements to, the tiles adjacent to "Portia". This worker will be left in the city for Vox Controli as per the re-possession process described above.
- For compensation of this treaty, the Lux Invicta team hereby agrees to send to the Vox Controli team, a sum of 6 technologies total. 3 of these will be the free technologies given to scientific civilizations per era, and 3 other techs, one from each of the following eras remaining in the game. The actual techs to be given will be agreed to by the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams at the earliest and most convenient opportunity possible. Should this not be ahered to for reason of common decision by both the Lux Invicta or Vox Controli teams, this treaty is void. If there are other unavoidable problems not brought about directly by actions of either team, then a resolution to this situation will be negotiated by the two teams.
- The Lux Invicta team also agrees to provide the Vox Controli the sum of 150 gold, minus whatever is found to be necessary to acquire the "Map Making" technology, as is needed by the Lux Invicta team.
- From this day forward, the two teams of Lux Invicta and Vox Controli will swear an alliance of friendship with each other, forever coming to each others aid when necessary, and never acting towards each other in a hostile manner, except for the one condition mentioned above for the re-possession of "Portia". This term will lie in place until agreed to by both the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams to void it, should this ever be desired by both the teams.
- The expiration of this contract will take place only when officially declared VOID by both teams. From that point on, the status quo will be re-established, minus the terms of this agreement which have set forth as otherwise. The Vox Controli team will then regain control of the city "Portia" by any means deemed necessary.
Lux Invicta
Document signed as official by 'Trip', King of the Lux Invicta team.
1550 BC
Document signed as official by 'BetaHound', Voice of Foreign Affairs for Vox Controli.
1550BC |
For those who don't like to read, basically this means we pay Vox a lot of cash and techs so we can survive and move to Lego's continent. We will be friends the rest of the game as well.
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CiverDan
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Sounds good. If we can keep a solid friendship with both Vox and Lego, it will help to further protect us from potential attack (in addition to the barrier of the water itself and distance)
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:25
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Got this from BetaHound not too long ago.
quote:
Hi Trip. I almost have the team convinced on this. I have also written Nathan of GS to let him know what's up, with rationale as to why GS should provide the 20 gold. He may be in touch with you.
Regarding the home front - two team members are adamant about the world map matter raised earlier. They are suggesting this be a condition for also providing writing. To make this go down easier, it would be helpful if you agreed to provide your world map when map making is obtained. This would be useful to us.
I suspect GS may be asking the same thing of you, and that their 20 gold may be contingent upon that.
And btw, the team agreed to complete the jungle clearing project around Portia. That was a difficult discussion, but in the end, we could see how it ties into the overall plan and deal.
How goes it with GoW? You are taking awhile to play the turn so I figure things are being discussed. Best of luck. .... Beta.
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And sent this back to him, since we're short on time:
quote:
I'll get back with you on the world map. That should go through, but our team need to discuss it.
I got this message from Ghengis earlier today:
quote:
Surely Vox can cough up another 40 gold or Philosophy to sweeten the deal since your two civs are both getting this? |
I know we can't give over another tech or 40 gold, so you will probably have to talk with GoW and/or GS about this. Another 20 gold for Vox and GS, while it would sting, should not cripple you both. It would make discussions easier if I knew how you were getting Map Making to begin with. I'm assuming that you'll be getting it from GoW SOMEHOW, since they're the only ones who've researched it. However, if no decision is reached by the time we have to send our turn, everything will be cut off, so a decision must be made one way or another. |
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14-01-2003 21:06
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