15-01-2003 01:25									#1
	Vassal State Strategy Support Apolyton

Hi, I'm new to these forums,

Well I just tried the Vassal State Strat on a Monarch Game, random huge map, with all 14 civs playing. Well the map is of one very large continent with 3 other smaller continents. I am on the very large one playing as China, I beat off my opponents rather early with an archer rush. I defeated the Zulus before 1500 BC, and left them one city. I did the same to the germans, who were completely destroyed. The french were next and I left them with one city.

Well I was really behind in technology as I had been setting tax to 90% gaining money to buy techs from the computer.

Well now I am the dominating faction on the continent with the English, Russian, Japanese, Indian smaller states on the continent.

Ok here comes the problem I am having. I am trying to establish the remaining powers to be my Vassals. They have about 5-10 cities. My problem is they are damn poor. They have no money. I can not even get 10 gold per turn from them. The only person that even accepted 300 gold per turn is the Persians on an Island.

How can I make these remaining powers rich? In Randomturn's strategy, he was making 2000+ gold per turn with 100% science. He was quite rich, while I am only making aboug 200+ gold at 100% science.

Is it because I am playing monarch that the AI isn't very competitive? I mean they are really poor, some countries still refuse to give me 1 Gold per turn.

Please help, I am really inspired by this strategy, and about to start my Emperor level game.

BTW this is the regular Civ 3 not PTW.

	15-01-2003 02:18									#2
	Got spare money?

Are the AIs in demo or mon/comm? The comp makes gpt deals only if they got a surplus of money, thats usually in rep or demo. Or maybe they got treaties with persia already.

	15-01-2003 02:24									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Vassal States have their place, but techtrading is my primary strategy. I play at Emporer level, Huge 16AI and my first war is early, so my expectation is just a few cities. My semi-vassal was hemmed in and another civ was expanding. My Semi-vassal had pop rushed, so he was paying thoroough the nose in tribute, unhappiness, and underpopulation. Joan is moving in, I'm probably to overcommited in troops to fight so I'm peacefully expanding.I need to build libraries, so its going to be 40 turns until its time for war, but all this time I've been growing in strength, culture, and long term objectives while my SemiVassal has been festering. Soon I'll have the Hanging Gardens he built while Ive been plotting his demise.

	15-01-2003 02:27									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by SanPellegrino Are the AIs in demo or mon/comm? The comp makes gpt deals only if they got a surplus of money, thats usually in rep or demo. Or maybe they got treaties with persia already.

Yes that was going to be my second question. How do I check the type of government they are in? And is there a way to start a revolution in their nation so that they can reinstate a money producing govt?

	15-01-2003 02:54									#5
	Tired of ads?

Nevermind, I figured it out. When I checked the type of govts the AIs are running, all of them are Democracy except for Aztec which is still running in a Republic.

Since they are all these money making govts they should have a lot of money, which they don't. They are all very poor.

	15-01-2003 03:04									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If you've got a bad reputation, AI civs will rarely make gpt deals with you, regardless of their surplus. Warmongering can be done without taking hits to your rep, but most warmongers don't care about their rep in the first place.

As for keeping other civs rich, you need to learn to keep them out of third-world status. Sure, some civs are better off dead...if I start out neighboring the Iroquois, for example, I will destroy them ASAP. The MW is too tough. But, for the most part, I'll prune my neighbors, taking a city here and a city there, but leave most of their empire intact. In my mind, they are all leasing land on MY world, and are there to serve my means. If I choose to have them research tech for me, so be it...I'll let them get big, maybe even give them techs to spur their thirst for knowledge, then take, steal, or demand it from them later.

Beating them all down to one or two cities will not give them enough tools to be good vassals.

	15-01-2003 03:17									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Bluefrog If you've got a bad reputation, AI civs will rarely make gpt deals with you, regardless of their surplus. Warmongering can be done without taking hits to your rep, but most warmongers don't care about their rep in the first place. As for keeping other civs rich, you need to learn to keep them out of third-world status. Sure, some civs are better off dead...if I start out neighboring the Iroquois, for example, I will destroy them ASAP. The MW is too tough. But, for the most part, I'll prune my neighbors, taking a city here and a city there, but leave most of their empire intact. In my mind, they are all leasing land on MY world, and are there to serve my means. If I choose to have them research tech for me, so be it...I'll let them get big, maybe even give them techs to spur their thirst for knowledge, then take, steal, or demand it from them later. Beating them all down to one or two cities will not give them enough tools to be good vassals.

What about the civs that I have never touched? They have been intact and have about 5-10 cities over the map. They dont seem very rich either. How do you bring other nations out of third world status? Only Persia right now is as technologically developed as me, because of my trading and selling of techs to them.

How is warmonging done without taking rep hits? I would really like to know how to provoke another nation to declare war on me.

	15-01-2003 03:49									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Try giving them some of your techs / gold. That will both make them like you, and make them rich.

	15-01-2003 04:23									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What's going on is that all their money is being used already either in buying luxaries / resources, paying off their debts, with apprently enough science spending where they have a surplus of 10 or less. (AI will never sign a deal that would result in their running a deficit.)

If you actually want the AIs to move out of the 3rd world, Krellian is correct, gift them techs.

Myself, I prefer them staying in the 3rd world so I don't have to worry about them potientally back-stabbing me later on.

	15-01-2003 04:45									#10
	Got spare money?

Alright cool, gifting them some money seems to work a little. Now my next question is (hope ya not getting annoyed.) How do I provoke a war with another country without myself actually declaring it? I want them to declare war on me instead, so I won't take a reputation hit.

	15-01-2003 04:54									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

spying

	15-01-2003 05:04									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by IamJordan1 Alright cool, gifting them some money seems to work a little. Now my next question is (hope ya not getting annoyed.) How do I provoke a war with another country without myself actually declaring it? I want them to declare war on me instead, so I won't take a reputation hit.

You can declare war and not receive a rep hit. First, make sure you've got no active deals with the target civ. No gpt, no ROP, MPP, or the like. Violations of regular trades damages your rep slightly, while ROP and MPP rapes damage your rep pretty harshly. Not just with the civ you're going to war with, either; your rep is a worldwide thing. Also, make sure none of your troops are inside their territory when you declare war, as this will be perceived as a violation of an ROP, even if there wasn't one, formally.

Other things that can damage your rep...razing cities, having captured workers, etc.

So, basically, you wage an honest war, treat your neighbors with a modicum of respect (while taking their stuff, heh), and your reputation will remain intact. Note: nations can still be furious with you, and probably will be, but deals can still be made.

As for provoking others to declare war...if they have troops in your territory, demand they leave. Either they will leave, or they'll declare war. Also, leaving a city unprotected will lure them into your territory.

	15-01-2003 05:57									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Concerning keeping civs rich, joncnunn is correct. However, I never give gifts to the AI, but contact them every turn to see if they've got money available to buy the tech I know they do not have yet. This gets repetitious, to be sure, but it is the only way to reliably catch an AI when they momentarily have gpt to spare. In AU203, I got most of the big civs in gpt deals with me early (Education). This allowed me to put Science to 100% and sell them techs whenever our previous deals were almost through. Had I missed this chance early on, I might never have become a tech broker.


Dominae

	15-01-2003 19:35									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by IamJordan1 How is warmonging done without taking rep hits? I would really like to know how to provoke another nation to declare war on me.

Dominae kind of answered this, but here's my condensed version:

Go into diplomacy with the target Civ and click on "Active" to view your active deals. Make sure "Peace Treaty" is the only one listed; if there are any active deals when you initiate a war, you'll take a rep hit. Click on "Peace Treaty", click "Ok" for the "Are you sure you want to renegotiate" message. Then hit "Clear" to remove the treaty from the bargaining table. You'll then get a message asking are you sure you want to declare war. Yes. No rep hit.

	15-01-2003 22:44									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I investiage the AIs every time I discover a tech when I have a tech lead myself.

If I don't have a tech lead (using the 1 science beaker tactic), it's every 10 turns I investiage them.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Concerning keeping civs rich, joncnunn is correct. However, I never give gifts to the AI, but contact them every turn to see if they've got money available to buy the tech I know they do not have yet. This gets repetitious, to be sure, but it is the only way to reliably catch an AI when they momentarily have gpt to spare. In AU203, I got most of the big civs in gpt deals with me early (Education). This allowed me to put Science to 100% and sell them techs whenever our previous deals were almost through. Had I missed this chance early on, I might never have become a tech broker. Dominae

	16-01-2003 04:21									#16
	Support Apolyton

Spying makes the other civ declare war on you and does not hurt you rep. that much because it was not effected by the patches.