17-01-2003 22:16									#421
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Actually, I was asking whether or not he believed America to be able to claim responsibilty for ultimate victory. I believe that belongs to the Soviet Union.

I don't believe it belongs to any one nation. Remove any of the three main Allies and you lose the war or (more likely) see a stalemate.

	17-01-2003 22:30									#422
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ned Why is the world more today free, democratic and respectful of human rights than anytime in its history?

Let's take an example of how America made the world more free, democratic and respectful of human rights:

In 1953, there was a populist revolution to overthrow the king and he was replaced with a democratically-elected leader, popular and loved by the people. The CIA then instigated a succesful military coup to overthrow the democratic government and put the king back into power. In 1979, another populist revolution forced the king to flee the country and a certain Ayatollah Khomeini took power, but he hasn't given Iran democracy either, sadly. So, thanks to America, Iran went from a democratic country to a fundamental islamic, anti-american dictatorship. Well done there.

1953? That was ages ago, I hear you cry. Well, let's take a more up to date example of US meddling:

In the early 1990s, Afghanistan was ruled by a pro-soviet state. To get rid of this state, and purely to protect US interests, Britain and the US set about arming and training a fundamental isalmic group known as the Taliban who had agreed to fight Russia and force them out of the middle east. The Taliban's grab for power was succesful, largely thanks to Britain and America. So you'd think Osama (affiliated with the Taliban) would be greatful. Not so, since Saudi Arabia and George Bushi Snr. had prevented Bin Laden from taking out Saddam Hussein, even after American troops had trained Osama for the task. That's right folks, there are no terrorist links between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. In fact, Bin Laden hates Saddam. Bin Laden wants Iraq to be an extremeist islamic state, much like Afghanistan. Incidentally, the members of the ruling party before the Taliban (I forget their name), whom America had helped to turf out of power then went on to form the Northern Alliance, whom America just helped back into power. Well done again.

	17-01-2003 22:30									#423
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Actually, I was asking whether or not he believed America to be able to claim responsibilty for ultimate victory. I believe that belongs to the Soviet Union. As for how 'how was UN military intervention in Kosovo justified?', if you think a leader murdering his own people in the name of ethnic cleansing isn't justification enough, I guess that shows the difference between Americans and Europeans. And just in case you were thinking of using my argument to sa 'why then shouldn't we attack Sadam Hussein?', he paid the price 12 years ago and continues to pay it.

The UN did not intervene in Kosovo. NATO did. The US lead NATO, that is. The UN refused to intervene to prevent ethnic cleansing.

So much for the UN.

	17-01-2003 22:34									#424
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ned The UN did not intervene in Kosovo. NATO did. The US lead NATO, that is. The UN refused to intervene to prevent ethnic cleansing.

So what? How does that alter the fact that intervention was justified? Or were you picking on a mild inaccuracy because you didn't want to admit that my point was valid and correct?

	17-01-2003 23:32									#425
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I don't believe it belongs to any one nation. Remove any of the three main Allies and you lose the war or (more likely) see a stalemate.

It is debatable as to whether Russia would have taken all of European Continent if the Invasion of Normandy would not have taken place. No one can saw now. The Invasion was timed perfectly (well maybe a little late), as to grab a great deal of land before the Russians could (well at least save Western Europe).

	17-01-2003 23:38									#426
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 That's right folks, there are no terrorist links between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. In fact, Bin Laden hates Saddam. Bin Laden wants Iraq to be an extremeist islamic state, much like Afghanistan. Incidentally, the members of the ruling party before the Taliban (I forget their name), whom America had helped to turf out of power then went on to form the Northern Alliance, whom America just helped back into power. Well done again.

When things get tough and you have a common enemy with someone you buddy up with them even if you hate their guts. Look at the Soviets and America in WWII.

	17-01-2003 23:46									#427
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 In the early 1990s, Afghanistan was ruled by a pro-soviet state. To get rid of this state, and purely to protect US interests, Britain and the US set about arming and training a fundamental isalmic group known as the Taliban who had agreed to fight Russia and force them out of the middle east. The Taliban's grab for power was succesful, largely thanks to Britain and America. So you'd think Osama (affiliated with the Taliban) would be greatful. Not so, since Saudi Arabia and George Bushi Snr. had prevented Bin Laden from taking out Saddam Hussein, even after American troops had trained Osama for the task. That's right folks, there are no terrorist links between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. In fact, Bin Laden hates Saddam. Bin Laden wants Iraq to be an extremeist islamic state, much like Afghanistan. Incidentally, the members of the ruling party before the Taliban (I forget their name), whom America had helped to turf out of power then went on to form the Northern Alliance, whom America just helped back into power. Well done again.

REvisionist daydreams. We supported a different group during the 1980's. Not the Taliban. We did welcome the Taliban rise to power, because at least there was a centralized government. (Before there was just warlordism.) But we did not create it. You are just making stuff up dude.

	17-01-2003 23:47									#428
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: When things get tough and you have a common enemy with someone you buddy up with them even if you hate their guts. Look at the Soviets and America in WWII

What about the intervention in Guatemala? That wasn't purely self-serving?

	17-01-2003 23:48									#429
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin No, its the evolution of language. Your is much harder to say than ur. Banana is much harder to say than nanner. Hood is much simpler than neighborhood. You will come off as more progressive if you speak simply. Only slow, dumb, old fashioned people bother to use proper language and punctuation.

and if I remember right, wasn't this accelerated in California with the big migration there?

	17-01-2003 23:49									#430
	Inflate your Upload Space

I know the big difference between Americans and Non Americans ! (that is the topic right ? )
Non Americans bash the US and tire over time
Americans wave their flag and are tireless


(just to say I'm beginning to be bored by this thread, which raises an interesting topic, but gets completely wasted by anti/pro America speeches)

	17-01-2003 23:57									#431
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I know the big difference between Americans and Non Americans ! (that is the topic right ? ) Non Americans bash the US and tire over time Americans wave their flag and are tireless (just to say I'm beginning to be bored by this thread, which raises an interesting topic, but gets completely wasted by anti/pro America speeches)

There have been many generalizations made here and this is another one. Yes, there are a lot of those speeches, but the thread is not just those speeches.

	18-01-2003 00:04									#432
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I know the big difference between Americans and Non Americans ! (that is the topic right ? ) Non Americans bash the US and tire over time Americans wave their flag and are tireless (just to say I'm beginning to be bored by this thread, which raises an interesting topic, but gets completely wasted by anti/pro America speeches)

USA!

	18-01-2003 00:05									#433
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: When things get tough and you have a common enemy with someone you buddy up with them even if you hate their guts. Look at the Soviets and America in WWII What about the intervention in Guatemala? That wasn't purely self-serving?

Which one? In the 30's?

	18-01-2003 00:06									#434
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ned Why is the world more today free, democratic and respectful of human rights than anytime in its history?

Cause the British spread the tenets of their civilization
over 1/4 of the world, or is American responsable for
Democracy in India, Kenya etc? It would be true to say
America is responsible for the continuing Democracy in
some areas of the world, but the seed was planted by
the UK

	18-01-2003 00:26									#435
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by GP Which one? In the 30's?

The 1950s I think, involving United Fruit asking the CIA to overthrow the democratically elected government.

	18-01-2003 00:36									#436
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Actually, I was asking whether or not he believed America to be able to claim responsibilty for ultimate victory.

That's your fault for not being clear in your postings and Eurocentric to boot.

quote: if you think a leader murdering his own people in the name of ethnic cleansing isn't justification enough,

No, I don't see that as a valid reason to violate your entirely reasonable prohibition against pointless foreign intervention into internal conflicts. I wasn't to enthused about sending troops to Somalia either.

quote: And just in case you were thinking of using my argument to sa

I would appreciate you avoiding putting words in other people's mouths. It only serves to make you look asinine.

	18-01-2003 00:46									#437
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The 1950s I think, involving United Fruit asking the CIA to overthrow the democratically elected government.

And assassinate the President, which by US law is illegal, (i think murder is too)

	18-01-2003 00:47									#438
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 So what? How does that alter the fact that intervention was justified? Or were you picking on a mild inaccuracy because you didn't want to admit that my point was valid and correct?

Zulu, I must have forgotten what your point was; however, the U.S. and the Europeans were both involved in Kosovo. You agree that the Kosovo was justified. Therefore the U.S., you will have to admit, does act to increase justice in the world.

	18-01-2003 00:49									#439
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ozz And assassinate the President, which by US law is illegal,

It wasn't illegal at the time.

	18-01-2003 01:05									#440
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ozz Cause the British spread the tenets of their civilization over 1/4 of the world, or is American responsable for Democracy in India, Kenya etc? It would be true to say America is responsible for the continuing Democracy in some areas of the world, but the seed was planted by the UK

I agree. America is part of the British civilization in most respects. We too are spreading British civilization to the extent we can.

	18-01-2003 01:22									#441
	Suffering from ads?

I believe we have historically intervened in Carribean and Central American chaos in order primarily to protect American lives and property. Our recent intervention in Haiti was to restore some semblence of law and order.

As to overthrowing democracies such as in Iran in 1953, this was all part of the cold war. We viewed the struggle against communism as a struggle for democracy and human rights precisely because of what we saw in the USSR and China. So-called democratic regimes had voted in communists in Europe and elsewhere after WWII. The problem was, these new communist governments promptly became part of the USSR's communist empire and thus were enemies of the United States, NATO and the West.

You simply cannot divorce events in Iran from the cold war. That is taking it out of context.

Since the fall of the USSR, we are much more tolerant of elected communist governments. Witness the current struggle in Venezuela. Despited the chaos, we have stayed out of it.

	18-01-2003 01:32									#442
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It wasn't illegal at the time.

Murder or Assassination of a foreign head of state

Which was legal?

	18-01-2003 01:51									#443
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I started reading this thread and got dizzy.

Then I just skipped to the last page... oh my god this is long!!!

Why are American so different from the rest of the west?

Simple... Money.

Americans have accepted the fact that money does in fact make the world go round. While this is a rather shallow look at it, it is, in my opinion, true.

Since we accept that fact, our society, economies, and even politics have moved to reflect that ideology.

The rest of the Western world has not accepted the fact that money is the source of all power (good and evil) because they do not want to face the ugliness of the truth. They therefore wallow in their patheticness of morals and ethics... ideals that have nothing to do with politics.

You may think I am being sarcastic, but I am not.

When the rest of the world declines (and they have) the offer to become more like Americans then they have elected to become, or stay, more ethical and more poverish. Oh, well... your loss.

Us Americans do infiltrated your no's and no thanks through our American propeganda disguised as movies, (red, white and) blue jeans, pepsi (red, white and blue), and McDonalds (which is actually communist, but anyway)...

I think that America is so diveresed and so driven by money, free trade, and humanitarian issues that the rest of the world becomes blinded to the actuall ways that make us the same as every other country. Such oversights lead to thread like this, and to the bettering of America and American culture becoming dominant the world over...

(I must say that while I love American Football, I like Rugby and Australian Rules Football even more.)

	18-01-2003 02:00									#444
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

USA!

	18-01-2003 02:15									#445
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I started reading this thread and got dizzy.

Then I just skipped to the last page... oh my god this is long!!!

Why are American so different from the rest of the west?

Simple... Money.

Americans have accepted the fact that money does in fact make the world go round. While this is a rather shallow look at it, it is, in my opinion, true.

Since we accept that fact, our society, economies, and even politics have moved to reflect that ideology.

The rest of the Western world has not accepted the fact that money is the source of all power (good and evil) because they do not want to face the ugliness of the truth. They therefore wallow in their patheticness of morals and ethics... ideals that have nothing to do with politics.

You may think I am being sarcastic, but I am not.

When the rest of the world declines (and they have) the offer to become more like Americans then they have elected to become, or stay, more ethical and more poverish. Oh, well... your loss.

Us Americans do infiltrated your no's and no thanks through our American propeganda disguised as movies, (red, white and) blue jeans, pepsi (red, white and blue), and McDonalds (which is actually communist, but anyway)...

I think that America is so diveresed and so driven by money, free trade, and humanitarian issues that the rest of the world becomes blinded to the actuall ways that make us the same as every other country. Such oversights lead to thread like this, and to the bettering of America and American culture becoming dominant the world over...

(I must say that while I love American Football, I like Rugby and Australian Rules Football even more.)

	18-01-2003 02:17									#446
	Support Apolyton

USA!

	18-01-2003 02:19									#447
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ned So-called democratic regimes had voted in communists in Europe and elsewhere after WWII.

Which European countries elected Communists in free democratic elections?

	18-01-2003 03:14									#448
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Poland, and IIRC, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

"Free" of course is your word, not mine.

	18-01-2003 03:50									#449
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why are Americans so different - space

In Europe anywhere you go has clear evidence of 10,000 years of setttlement


In America there is not the obvious burden of history and you have the freedom to go where and do what you want

	18-01-2003 03:53									#450
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If democratic elections are not free then they are by definition not democratic.