16-01-2003 00:17									#31
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The reasons that I talk more about Israel's crimes than of those of other states are:
1.The fact that I live in it,
2.I feel more connection to it as a result, and
3.Also know more about said crimes, also because I live here.

That's all... That's my battle right now because that's where I'm at.

	16-01-2003 00:18									#32
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I am sorry, I of course forgot to point out that the ones that threatened you are frighteningly stupid people. period.

	16-01-2003 00:20									#33
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Spiffor: Just for the sake of accuracy, the bad folks weren't really serious... Small stones and they're all wimps anyway

EDIT: Yes they are stupid. Unfortunately there are a LOT of them in Reali School (You Israelis know ) and in Israel General. How did the proletarians degrade so?
Um, wait... In Reali they're all burgoise and very rich too... Except for a few people like myself whose parents are willing to spend half their income on my school..... And I don't even study - not to speak of studying hard...

	16-01-2003 00:40									#34
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oh god. you didn't just use the b-word. these definitions of classes are way outdated: doctors make less than factory workers, etc.

Firelad: you seem to be a hopeless romantic. That's cute. but reality bites. Say, Israel collapses. what good will it bring to the world? will people be happier? no. Our country, believe it or not, is a sane island of pragmatism and prosperity in this region. Your protests are worthy, I know first hand evidences from people that served in the territories how is it to serve there. A friend of mine was a member of the Sayeret Egoz special forces. He said he shot and wounded a man during cerfew, because he didn't stop running after being repeatedly called to stop. He turned to be an innocent civilian. He also killed a terrorist in a gunbattle. We are in a very grave situation, indeed. But does your rethoric actually help the situation? make things better? are people generally happier because of you? Because that's what MY PERSONAL morality is all about. It's called utility. might read up on that.

	16-01-2003 00:52									#35
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Not to take any sides on what Firelad is fighting for, but I think it's brave and good thing. It's important to say also the unpopular views. Too bad you got threatened, I hope you still have the courage to go on.
But as I said, I have nothing against this commander, I don't know him, I just think it's brave to demonstrate the other views, even if one didn't agree with them.

	16-01-2003 00:53									#36
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@ Azael

Interesting point with the overall hapyness in this case. Does protesting make ppl. happy? Well the ones that are protesting are angry about something, and the ones that disagree are angry at the protestors ... so it seems it doesnt make ppl. happy ...

Therefor for overall happyness increase governments should do their best that they will be trusted more, like inventing better lies .... hm, or tell the trues? Nah, better not, or the overall happyness would fall dramaticly

Conclusion, best for overall happyness is a government which is king at creating an perfect illusion for its population...

	16-01-2003 01:08									#37
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nice try Daniel.

The act of protest makes the protesting individual feel good about it. however many others can disagree strongly, thus it would harm them, that balances the odds against protest. There is the big aspect, though. Protesting araises public awareness to certain problems, and keeps the government accountable, which is usually very utilitarian. It keeps the government vigilant to rights and wrongs.

My utilitarian point against his thoughts is the destruction of the State of Israel.

	16-01-2003 01:11									#38
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Azazel: The B-word is usually uttered by me in a humorous context. In any case, most of the people in Reali are rich Denyatim (you live in Haifa, you know what I mean) - C'mon Gad Ze'evi's son sits in the next classroom. So you know what I mean.
And I do think that the application of my views would make people much happier. Most certainly it will spare many an untimely death.
If you want to read up on my position on what your view seems to be (I may be misunderstanding you, I admit to know next to nothing about it) then read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. And remember that I view the book as being ambivalent rather than one-sided as most people seem to consider it. But lately I've started to think that there are more parameters to happiness than Soma can bring. Or whatever that thing's called, haven't read the book for a while, don't have it at home.

	16-01-2003 01:16									#39
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Oh, the Realy kids are *******s, alright.

Brave new world... keep wanting to pick up this book, never actually did. In short, what's the Soma?

	16-01-2003 01:24									#40
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perfect happiness-creating chemical if u get down in very happy yet pointless BNW society.

	16-01-2003 01:32									#41
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That's not utilitarianism. society would stagnate under the use of drugs, and then, the social ( and not only ) hangover would come.

My morality: As much people as happy for as long as possible. period.

do you agree or disagree?

	16-01-2003 01:36									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel nice try Daniel. The act of protest makes the protesting individual feel good about it. however many others can disagree strongly, thus it would harm them, that balances the odds against protest. There is the big aspect, though. Protesting araises public awareness to certain problems, and keeps the government accountable, which is usually very utilitarian. It keeps the government vigilant to rights and wrongs.

Hm, ok...
but a government which does good enough propaganda that the population doesnt feel the need to protest, since there arent any important issues, would still be better than the ones we have, or no?

quote: My utilitarian point against his thoughts is the destruction of the State of Israel.

Hm, dont really know, if the overall world happyness would rise or fall in the case of the destruction of Israel. May depends on the circumstances. At least most of the Arab world would like it. Obviously Israel population wouldnt. Dont know about the rest of the world. But I wouldnt take it for granted that the majority would oppose Israel to be taken off the map.

Note: I dont say I want the destruction of Israel, just saying from an Utilitarian view it isnt so clear if it is a good thing or not.

My point being: Utilitarian is just Mob rule for what is right and wrong.

	16-01-2003 01:45									#43
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quote: Hm, ok... but a government which does good enough propaganda that the population doesnt feel the need to protest, since there arent any important issues, would still be better than the ones we have, or no?

no because an actual good government would be much better in terms of happiness.

quote: Hm, dont really know, if the overall world happyness would rise or fall in the case of the destruction of Israel. May depends on the circumstances. At least most of the Arab world would like it. Obviously Israel population wouldnt. Dont know about the rest of the world. But I wouldnt take it for granted that the majority would oppose Israel to be taken off the map.

most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, whould more happiness ensue from such an event. say, Israel is overrun by the palestinians. does that improve the situation of millions of people in the arab world? not by bit. They still live in dirt poor conditions, the women are still abused, the people are still opressed, children are still born into overpopulating countries, etc.

meanwhile the citizens of Israel suffer from either a corrupt regime that occupies them, or from being refugees in other countries.

Think once again, and realize that I am right.

	16-01-2003 01:56									#44
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Ok maybe in the case of Israel it is discussable if it would lead to more happyness or not.
But I was more talking about it in general than a specific example:
If the mayjority chooses they like to commit genocide on a people (for whatever reasons) it is the right thing to do if you think Utilitarian -> Mob Rule

	16-01-2003 02:17									#45
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quote: If the mayjority chooses they like to commit genocide on a people

If that would somehow increase the amount of human happiness, I'd agree. But I how can it?! The fact that they want it, doesn't mean that their life would be a lot better, there is no way that the improvement in their lives ( in terms of happiness) because of that could be great enough to make ammends for the murder of millions of people.

	16-01-2003 02:28									#46
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DanielXY: If that is discussable, then anything is.

	16-01-2003 02:42									#47
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quote: Why didn't you go with the old cake-in-the-face -demonstration?

I am afraid that is a Belgian copyright for Bill Gates only

quote: Originally posted by Azazel so does: The French commander in chief. The British The American The Japanese The Chinese The Russian The Egyptian The Spanish The Syrian The Iraqi ... ... ... The list goes to include any nation on earth. Holding your own nation to higher standards than others is nothing but arrogance, and feeling of superiority , and maybe even subliminal racism.

That is absolutely not true: you want an example?

The Belgian army commander has done nothing wrong whatsoever... as we do not use soldiers for agressive actions, only in case of disasters (the recent floods in belgium for example) or peacekeeping.. I don't even think Belgian soldiers have actually killed people in the recent past... so that argument is not on my friend


To Firelad: Showing your contempt is the only way to change things. If the badass commanders and politicians get no opposition, it will be all the easier to execute their plans. You've got the good spirit m8!

	16-01-2003 02:52									#48
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yes, trajanus, of course, the Belgian army has never committed any crimes.

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve5/1078lum.html

	16-01-2003 04:20									#49
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Just one smiley for firelad:

Okay, two...

	16-01-2003 04:30									#50
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Why didn't you go with the old cake-in-the-face -demonstration?

Somebody got our PM that way...

	16-01-2003 05:27									#51
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"most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, whould more happiness ensue from such an event. say, Israel is overrun by the palestinians. does that improve the situation of millions of people in the arab world? not by bit"

Does happiness = improving economic situation?

In terms of plain old emotional happiness, I think the Arabs would be delighted if Israel collapsed. Since there are more Arabs than Israelis, therefore overall happiness has increased if Israel were to collapse.

Of course, one could weigh the decrease of happiness of the Israelis more than the overall boost recieved to the Arabs. How would you gauge the happiness loss and compare to the Arab's happiness gain?

	16-01-2003 09:35									#52
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http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...15-035849-6156r

	16-01-2003 10:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Eli http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...15-035849-6156r

Is now really the time to become a royal pain in the arse of one of biggest allies?

	16-01-2003 11:37									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Eli http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...15-035849-6156r

A really good plan, to worsen the international relations of Israel to the rest of the world

We see, that Sharon knows how to strengthen the ties to Israels Allies

	16-01-2003 12:19									#55
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I think is in a precarious enough that it couldn't afford to kill people on their allies territory.

	16-01-2003 13:21									#56
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quote: "most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, whould more happiness ensue from such an event. say, Israel is overrun by the palestinians. does that improve the situation of millions of people in the arab world? not by bit" Does happiness = improving economic situation? In terms of plain old emotional happiness, I think the Arabs would be delighted if Israel collapsed. Since there are more Arabs than Israelis, therefore overall happiness has increased if Israel were to collapse. Of course, one could weigh the decrease of happiness of the Israelis more than the overall boost recieved to the Arabs. How would you gauge the happiness loss and compare to the Arab's happiness gain?

I am sorry, I fail to see your logic. Of course most of the arab world would be delighted. but how long this orgasm of hate would last? a day, two, a month at most? then, they'll return to be tortured and prosecuted by their leaders.

meanwhile the lives of the Israeli citizens would be destroyed.

the decision in the last week is not a good one, considering Israel's position. I guess one should be a superpower to have the right to do such things.

	16-01-2003 13:43									#57
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Hum, some interesting points all around,
I’ll start by the trivial first

1/ Belgians : I love these guys (much nicer than French ), but committed (as a state, don’t take that personally) a near genocide in Congo. Very well documented now, if little publicised, and absolutely horrendous (a bit like what we French did in Madagascar, around 47, I think). Yet army intervention doesn’t necessarily lead to slaughter, it can also prevent it, look at what is happening right now in Ivory Coast. The army is just a tool, state policies are the ones to blame.

2/ thumbs up for anybody taking non violent action to uphold its beliefs.

3/ “most of the arab world would prefer to take Israel off the map. That's undeniable. The question is, would more happiness ensue from such an event.”

Wrong question. Firstly, the ‘Arab street’ would probably be delighted by the disappearance of Israel, but they would also be probably happy just with the creation of a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel. Secondly, the genuine question for Israelis is related to Israel itself, what it is ready to do to ensure its preservation, what are its values, etc.

It has been said before, but Israel is fighting 2 wars, one against fanatic groups, for which it should have all our support, and where compromise is probably not possible. But it mixed that with a second war, against a whole population, by instrumentalising settlers and fanatics, by bullying palestinian civilians and driving them to submission, and by delaying the inevitable (the creation of a viable Palestinian state). This second war goes against the very justification of the original existence of Israel (create a haven for persecuted people). There are ways to separate the two wars, it has all been said before.

Anyway, these days I have the utmost sense of sympathy for anybody going against Sharon…

	16-01-2003 13:50									#58
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Azazel- you answered my question. I asked how someone who is a utilitarian would compare the two forms of happiness.

I'm certainly not defending the Arabs who want to wipe Israel out of the Middle East.

	16-01-2003 14:48									#59
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quote: There are ways to separate the two wars, it has all been said before.

Maroule: There are no two wars. I hate to see the palestinian population hurt, esp. seing reports of innocents being killed.
The sad part is that we don't have a choice?

-Withdraw unileterally from most territories? There would be nothing there AT ALL to stop the palestinian terrorists. infiltrations, attacks etc. There is no way that we can allow that to happen.
-Negotiate? With who? Arafat has shown that he uses the palestinian authority as a tool against Israel. During palestinian rule of 99% of the palestinian population, in the mid and late 90s, terror acts continued. If there are more moderate elements, they have no power, sadly.

-Bring the UN to intervene? We saw how much good it did us after we left lebanon. NOW hizbullah can reach my city with rockets.

So staying there is the only choice left. And then we are behaving like elephants in a China store. We break things along the way, and hurt people.

There is no easy way out. I don't think that the policies that the Israeli government conducts are always good, but we really don't have too much of a choice.

	16-01-2003 15:26									#60
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you did not have problems to withdraw unilaterally from Lebanon when it suited you, even though that was blotched. Allowing a viable palestinian state to exist would also deprive most hardliner palestinians all legitimacy. Those who really want the destruction of Israel (and are hiding behind claims for just a state) would be exposed. As for who would direct this state, don't worry, nature hates emptiness, and it would give a jolt to palestinian politics, fostering it on the administration of this new state.
One sticky point would be Jerusalem, but that will have to be resolved too, if you want to avoid another 50 years of bloodshed.
But I'm not candid, I know how hard these seemingly simple ideas are to implement. I just can't see any other solution, and definitely the preservation of the current status quo is neither possible nor desirable.
I also know I'm not suffering directly from the situation, so it's easier for me to say. Still, I think Likud policies are going nowhere fast, to the detriment of Israelis.

Last edited by Maroule on 16-01-2003 at 15:34