15-01-2003 16:51									#1
	My english teacher is trying to turn me into a socialist, HELP!!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Why is an opinion in a published book more valuable then mine, just because it is published?

For a pointless English assignment and a massive one……..I was up till 3:00 am since I got home from school last night working on it, went to school, came home, and I’m still working on it the next day. I have to find “scholarly” sources to back up the opinions/thesis of my paper. I could be wrong, but just because something is printed in a book, does not mean it is true, or valid……Mein Kamf anyone? Its published-so it must mean that it is true and meaningful! Of course it isn’t, it is racist trash. My teacher insists we find a ridiculous amount of quotes for commentators on our book(I have dante’s inferno).

For the love of me I CANNOT figure out why, just because they are published that their opinion is automatically more valid and valuable then my own. So if some wealthy idiot actor writes a book on why having risky sex with multiple unnamed partners, the opinion is automatically more valid then mine because after all-their famous and published! Is this all a grand scheme by my teacher to get me angry about class struggle and try to turn me into a socialist(after being up for 24 hours I’m having strange thoughts)…….

	15-01-2003 16:55									#2
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"...just because it is published"

"I have to find “scholarly” sources"

Not the same thing. Scholarly is not just published, but should be peer reviewed and bollocks should be shredded to little pieces - doesn't always work, but usually it does.

	15-01-2003 16:59									#3
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Pop culture press and academic press are two entirely different animals. In the pop culture press any moroon can get up and say anything he likes and no one has a chance to challege what he says while the academic press is supposed to give people a chance to write op-ed pieces and poke holes and the author's arguments.

	15-01-2003 17:02									#4
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I don´t understand your problem - backing up his own opinion/thesis is certainly not restricted to "socialists". You can have of course your opinion, but it doesn´t mean it is beyond any questioning. And at this point you simply have to find arguments, and books can be a good source. And you can also question the content of a book when you think it is nonsense, but at least you have to deal with it somehow...

	15-01-2003 17:03									#5
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The rules for quoting for this assignment is: If it in a book you can use it.

	15-01-2003 17:05									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I don´t understand your problem - backing up his own opinion/thesis is certainly not restricted to "socialists". You can have of course your opinion, but it doesn´t mean it is beyond any questioning. And at this point you simply have to find arguments, and books can be a good source. And you can also question the content of a book when you think it is nonsense, but at least you have to deal with it somehow...

She is tring to play my anger as a proletarian against the acadamea and the ruling class......first she gets us worked up on class strugle, then she has us reading marx, the communist manifesto........its all a conspiracy!!!

	15-01-2003 17:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen The rules for quoting for this assignment is: If it in a book you can use it.

But "use" doesn´t mean "agree with it" - or did they say you have to use contents from books, but cannot criticise these things?

	15-01-2003 17:09									#8
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What's wrong with being a socialist?

Reading the communist manifesto these days I am struck by two things, how many of Marx's demands have already happened (things like education for all) and how skewed his assumptions about what was going to happen was.

Reading it doesn't make you a communist, you can't really be against something unless you really understand it can you? Otherwise it's just fear born out of ignorance.

	15-01-2003 17:11									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro But "use" doesn´t mean "agree with it" - or did they say you have to use contents from books, but cannot criticise these things?

The purpose of the paper is to find information that agrees with our thesis, no matter what book it is in, and since I need to find 50 quotes which agrees with various aspects of my thesis, im forced(and everyone else is forced, if I ever want to finish this) to take any quote I can find-and no, there is no room in the paper to criticize the author.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH What's wrong with being a socialist? Reading the communist manifesto these days I am struck by two things, how many of Marx's demands have already happened (things like education for all) and how skewed his assumptions about what was going to happen was. Reading it doesn't make you a communist, you can't really be against something unless you really understand it can you? Otherwise it's just fear born out of ignorance.

Truth be told I have read the communist manifesto and some marx, and I agree with some of it, but it dosent work in practice.

	15-01-2003 17:25									#10
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the idea is that you can make a stronger paper by finding well researched well thought out sources that support your thesis. Even better if you can find well researched, well thought out sources that DON'T support your thesis, state why you feel they are incorrect, and use other well researched, well thought out sources to prove your point.

Research papers are not meant to be a question of "my work"...if you want to have a book, go write something down. If you want a position or research paper to be credible, you must show support your own work with the scholarly works of others. That's just the way it is.

	15-01-2003 17:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Truth be told I have read the communist manifesto and some marx, and I agree with some of it, but it dosent work in practice.

The force is strong with this one, but he'll fall soon enough

	15-01-2003 17:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by orange The force is strong with this one, but he'll fall soon enough

No, it cant be, Terry McAuliffe is my father? GAHHHH!!!!!!! *slices off his own hand with a light saber*














































(Terry McAuliffe is the head of the democratic party, for those who didnt know, dont worry-I hate the republicans more, I just dislike the democrats)

	15-01-2003 17:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by orange the idea is that you can make a stronger paper by finding well researched well thought out sources that support your thesis. Even better if you can find well researched, well thought out sources that DON'T support your thesis, state why you feel they are incorrect, and use other well researched, well thought out sources to prove your point. Research papers are not meant to be a question of "my work"...if you want to have a book, go write something down. If you want a position or research paper to be credible, you must show support your own work with the scholarly works of others. That's just the way it is.

So your saying that just because something is published it is therefore better then my opinion and more valuable then mine, just because it is published and because "thats the way it is"......dosent answer my question.

	15-01-2003 17:51									#14
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So this bit...
"I have to find “scholarly” sources to back up the opinions/thesis of my paper. "

...isn't quite correct...the sources don't have to be scholarly?

	15-01-2003 17:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls So this bit... "I have to find “scholarly” sources to back up the opinions/thesis of my paper. " ...isn't quite correct...the sources don't have to be scholarly?

My teachers/the schools policy on "scholarly" is anything which is published......

	15-01-2003 18:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen So your saying that just because something is published it is therefore better then my opinion and more valuable then mine, just because it is published and because "thats the way it is"......dosent answer my question.

You're supposed to find sources that ARE more valuable than yours. Face it, no matter what topic you pick, there is going to be someone out there who has researched it a little better than you...or a primary source in which case the person was there and would certainly have a point of view you can't have. That's the idea. If you argue that conditions for the German Army were horrible during World War I, you better damn well have a few letters from infantrymen to back that up...because you obviously can't speak on it.

	15-01-2003 18:35									#17
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Except theres a problem: Your comparing facts in your analogy to an opinion.

World War 1 was an event you cannot dispute happened, as such there is a right and a wrong as to different aspects of it.

Im looking for opinions based on a fictional work, so how does their opinion on things which didnt happen get to a status more elevated then mine?

	15-01-2003 19:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Except theres a problem: Your comparing facts in your analogy to an opinion. World War 1 was an event you cannot dispute happened, as such there is a right and a wrong as to different aspects of it. Im looking for opinions based on a fictional work, so how does their opinion on things which didnt happen get to a status more elevated then mine?

Aaargh! I go through this with my students all the time. So, once more into the breech:

You're right. Your opinion is just as good as theirs. But you're not -- or should not be -- reading opinions! Good literary criticism does not consist of "opinions": it consists of arguments, supported by both reason and evidence. And it's generally written by people who know more than you do about the subject at hand, who have thought and worked longer and harder on it than you have. That's why it's valuable, and that's why, if you use it to support your own arguments (not opinions), your own arguments become stronger.

The analogy to history, as it happens, is exactly accurate. History, except at the most pedestrian level, is not about showing "what happened." It's about interpreting what happened. Robert Caro interprets the life of Lyndon Johnson; David Fromkin interprets the role of the British in perpetuating instability in the Middle East. They do so after exhaustive research. You can have opinions on these things, but until you can back up your interprtations with the same rigor as they can, your opinion is just so much bollocks by comparison.

	15-01-2003 19:16									#19
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Ves, you sound a lot like me (don't worry hehehe). My suspicion is, the more you learn about the sh!t the Republicans do, the more you might find yourself agreeing with us socialists.

	15-01-2003 19:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ves, you sound a lot like me (don't worry hehehe). My suspicion is, the more you learn about the sh!t the Republicans do, the more you might find yourself agreeing with us socialists.

I used to think power was the source of all evil, then I thought it was money, but now I am certain BEYOND any doubt it is in fact the Republican party

The republicans are slowly driving me to socialism.

	15-01-2003 19:25									#21
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muahha we almost have you!

Anyways, Democrats do suck, but at least there are some lefties in there that are willing to listen. There is some room for internal reform of the D party, while the Republicans is a corporations/religious fanatics only party.

	15-01-2003 19:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sava muahha we almost have you! Anyways, Democrats do suck, but at least there are some lefties in there that are willing to listen. There is some room for internal reform of the D party, while the Republicans is a corporations/religious fanatics only party.

The Democrats also sometimes try to help the working class(though their attempts are usually misguided/failures) but they put in some effort heh!

Plus some of them arent in a drive to transform the world into a smoldering pile of trash for money.

Im sure the children of rich industrialists will be very happy living in sealed bubbles when the enviroment has been destroyed.

	16-01-2003 02:59									#23
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Vesayan,

1. Use a college library. You won't find scholarly commentary at a high school or public library. Go to a nearby college library. This is what the assignment is meant to do. Intriduce you to the world of academic commentary.

2. Next time, precheck the literature before picking your theme. Sure your teacher gave you a different order. That doesn't stop you from looking at the literature before selecting your theme.

3. Grow up. Stop whining. Take some initiative. You are practically a man, now. Act like one.

	16-01-2003 03:03									#24
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I'd agree in a way. The only reason I use "references" and a "bibliography" (in which incredibly we need to state where the bloody thing was published and what its ISDN code was, or something like that) is because it's a component of the mark you will be awarded.