16-01-2003 00:34									#1
	Discussion: War Werious levels Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I notice that our cities are starting to reach very high levels of war werrious. (55% in Boomtown.)

This is so high that I'd be very hestiant to implement a return home worker policy if it's not reduced before term 8 starts.

What should be do about it?

The following options would reduce it:

1. End the war with Germany & Rome as soon as MPPs can be peacefully & honorally canceled. (5 or 6 turns; might be so late that the govt falls.)

2. Massive Police Station campaign. (Bonus, it reduces corruption & waste, improving production and boosting the economy in the longrun. The disadvantage is it's going to need significant upfront cash.

3. Switch to either Monarchy or Communism. It would elimate War Werriousness, but corruption and waste would increase compared to present under either governement, leading to science suffering.

	16-01-2003 00:44									#2
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I think we can imagine stopping our research for a few turns to get loads of money (2203 per turn in 1320 AB) to rush police stations (which will be a good investment in peace time anyways).
Or we can simply raise the luxury slider. It will be a bit costly, but nothing unbearable.

	16-01-2003 00:47									#3
	Re: Discussion: War Werious levels Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 1. End the war with Germany & Rome as soon as MPPs can be peacefully & honorally canceled. (5 or 6 turns; might be so late that the govt falls.)

This is indeed the plan.

quote: 2. Massive Police Station campaign. (Bonus, it reduces corruption & waste, improving production and boosting the economy in the longrun. The disadvantage is it's going to need significant upfront cash.

This is also something I believe the current DM (Spiffor) and the new DM (yourself) should establish as a priority.

quote: 3. Switch to either Monarchy or Communism. It would elimate War Werriousness, but corruption and waste would increase compared to present under either governement, leading to science suffering.

Switching the government type, as you well know, it completely out of the question. Ending the wars is the FAR preferable alternative. We MUST maintain our technology lead, now that we finally HAVE one.

Besides, it's party policy for our party to fight any attempt to change the government type I don't think any of us would have a particularly difficulty having a period of peaceful development, either

	16-01-2003 01:27									#4
	Re: Discussion: War Werious levels Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 2. Massive Police Station campaign. (Bonus, it reduces corruption & waste, improving production and boosting the economy in the longrun. The disadvantage is it's going to need significant upfront cash.

How much ca$h? Just an estimate.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 3. Switch to either Monarchy or Communism. It would elimate War Werriousness, but corruption and waste would increase compared to present under either governement, leading to science suffering.

I never changed to communism before...
Could someone make some calculations?
How many turns until the end of Germany? Amount of waste, corruption, etc, compared with our production today... Stuff like that. There's a lot of folks here with a CPU installed in the brain... Come on guys! Show us what you can do!

Hmmm... Real communism... Prisons, gulags, the KGB instead the Intelligence Agency… I can’t wait!
Maybe Tassadar come back!

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 1. End the war with Germany & Rome as soon as MPPs can be peacefully & honorally canceled. (5 or 6 turns; might be so late that the govt falls.)

Yeah, right… That one. Well, if you wish… sigh!

	16-01-2003 01:31									#5
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I agree that I wouldn't want #3 to happen and think we should do everything we can to minimize the chance of it happening.

When WW gets too high, there is a chance of a revolt happening even with loads of luxaries. (It happened in one of my games)

I think the danger level is when there's 50%+ of the unhappiness due to WW (even after Police Stations & Womens Sufferage)

On the luxary slider, it can be used to maintaign order, but in my experence it won't prevent a collapse of governement)

Yes, Police Stations have moved up on my list ahead of Hospitals should there still be WW when the first term 8 chat takes place.

	16-01-2003 01:43									#6
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Police stations aren't really necessary at this point. Now that we have 8 luxuries again, we don't have to worry about war weariness in cities that don't have a hospital yet (assuming that they have a marketplace to make full use of the luxuries, which Boom Town hadn't).
Still, we should limit our research spendings (as we are now the undisputed leaders in research) and spend more money on police stations, which are needed anyway.

Btw, speaking of governments, Rome is still in anarchy, but Germany has switched to Communism recently. Looks like the red shirts have finally taken charge.

	16-01-2003 02:07									#7
	Re: Discussion: War Werious levels Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 3. Switch to either Monarchy or Communism. It would elimate War Werriousness, but corruption and waste would increase compared to present under either governement, leading to science suffering.

I would just like to point out to Arnelos that it was not any ALP member that brought this up as a serious possibility....

*sigh* With the Communists overthrowing the democracies in Rome and Germany, we can count on the Axis of Evil powers falling behind in the science race, but will try to make up for it with a much larger military.

Germany is nearly gone, 1-2 more turnchats and it will be all over for them.

However, the Roman front has been largely uneventful for them and us, albeit a few skirmishes and the capture of Brundisium and as I understand the Romans (outside of their anarchy status) are bolstering their military forces.

Ending the war with Rome now, will yes, satisfy our population. But Rome will invade again, quite possibly with greater forces at Caesar's disposal.

	16-01-2003 02:13									#8
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This will greatly decrease the value of most German cities; as they are going to be pop-rushed mercilessly.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Btw, speaking of governments, Rome is still in anarchy, but Germany has switched to Communism recently. Looks like the red shirts have finally taken charge.

	16-01-2003 02:19									#9
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[roleplay]

If we can stand those turns of war (5-6, as said by joncnunn) without revolts, it's ok. Can we stand so long? Than we'll make peace. Good for the Nation. Limiting our research, making some money, rushing some police stations and everything's ok.
After that, we'll need 20 turns (I'm not sure. More? Less?) to go to war again without war weariness...
In the old days, war and honor used to walk together. No more glory, no more battles, no more leaders... Just money, luxuries, pollution and politicians.

Ok, builders... It's your time now!

wait till the panzers start to come...

[/roleplay]

Just kidding. A combo of Police Stations, luxury slider and less money to research will do the trick, for some time.

	16-01-2003 02:37									#10
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If the war ends in 5-6 turns, I'm not so sure about the value of building police stations; at least, not in cities near the Palace & FP. By the time they would be built, the war's end would only be a few turns away.

However, if we wanted to stop research and do a massive rush campaign, that might work...

	16-01-2003 03:26									#11
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If the war lasts 5-6 turns, how about building workers in the worst cities? We can always move them back, building Police Stations the normal way for our next war. Raising the luxury slider is a good idea for the moderately angry cities.

	16-01-2003 03:37									#12
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It would be highly wasteful to build workers right now, whether "worst" cities mean the unhappiest (12 pop), or the least efficient :
In the unhappiest cities, many shields are produced. SInce we need at least a turn to build a 10-shields worker, a city which produces 30 shields would simply waste 2/3 of its production by doing this. This production can be used to build a marketplace or police station.
In the least productive cities, we should wait for War Weariness to end before integrating the workers we already have in great quantity. Instead of making them lose population, this population should be used to build temples or marketplaces.

Overall, we already have too many workers, so we shouldn't build more ; it would be counterproductive.

	16-01-2003 04:33									#13
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We can still build Colosemums in most of our cities, that will Take some of the unhappieness load off for short time.

E_T

	16-01-2003 04:37									#14
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DO NOT FORGET that we MIGHT be having Japan Declair War on us. If that happens, we will get a Happiness bonus from it (even though we will lose 1 of our Luxes).

E_T

	16-01-2003 04:44									#15
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I take it that we aare intending to destroy Germany or at least stop their oil supply completely before we are done with them in order to prevent them getting Panzers? If so, then how close to this goal are we? I realise we are near taking their last supply (if we haven't done so already), but what about the possibility of them getting it from other civs?

If we are to prevent this, then we are either near that end or need to go to war with them again later. If the latter, then Police Stations should be crucial - ready for the next war to completely blunt their war machine.

	16-01-2003 06:13									#16
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I say up the lux slider and WIPE OUT GERMANY!!!

I have never faced panzers. I hope I never will. I always finish off the germans before panzers like I always get the UN. Finish the job.

Do what it takes to finish off the war. I bet you we can finish them in 6-10 turns. Becaus of our allies, I might be 6-8 turns.

Mss

	16-01-2003 06:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed I say up the lux slider and WIPE OUT GERMANY!!! I have never faced panzers. I hope I never will. I always finish off the germans before panzers like I always get the UN. Finish the job. Do what it takes to finish off the war. I bet you we can finish them in 6-10 turns. Becaus of our allies, I might be 6-8 turns. Mss

That's the spirit.
Btw, I've faced panzers once. Chieftain level (don't laugh!), one of my first games. It was a traumatic experience...

	16-01-2003 10:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I take it that we aare intending to destroy Germany or at least stop their oil supply completely before we are done with them in order to prevent them getting Panzers? If so, then how close to this goal are we? I realise we are near taking their last supply (if we haven't done so already), but what about the possibility of them getting it from other civs?

There are currently two civs with an oil surplus: India and Japan. (Rome also has two sources, but one will soon be taken by Brundisium's expanding culture.) An oil jump could create another oil exporting civ at any time.

Rubber, on the other hand, does not jump, and only Greece has a surplus. As such, I think Rubber is the key to keeping Panzers out of Bismarck's hands; and, as a bonus, he can't even build Infantry without it. If we do have to finish this war prematurely once the MPPs expire (which I think we might), our Tanks will roll over Riflemen in the next war so long as we can keep an embargo with Greece against Germany.

	16-01-2003 20:16									#19
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Good idea; might as well expand the embrago against Germany to as many countries as possible. It will also be easier to do so while the MPPs are in effect. (In fact, we probably need to sign the portion involving Greece while Greece is at war with Germany.)

	16-01-2003 20:21									#20
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On Colosusems vs Police Stations : As I recall, Police Stations cut WW effect in half, while Colususes only make 2 unhappy citizens content, making Police Stations the prefered build.

As a bonus, the same Police Stations will reduce Corruption and Waste even in times of peace.

Also, in times of peace with as many luxaries as we have + Sistine's Chapel, we'd already have WLTPD without the Colosuseson the main land and will continue to do so until our city populations get much larger.

	16-01-2003 21:04									#21
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Also, in times of peace with as many luxaries as we have + Sistine's Chapel, we'd already have WLTPD without the Colosuseson the main land and will continue to do so until our city populations get much larger.

If my calculations are correct, in times of peace we can have WLTPD in Metropolises with up to 14 citizens. A Colosseum would raise this number to 15 citizens - certainly not a significant improvement.
Police Stations are more effective in fighting war weariness, and they also serve as second courthouses, so they are much more effective.

	16-01-2003 21:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn On Colosusems vs Police Stations : As I recall, Police Stations cut WW effect in half, while Colususes only make 2 unhappy citizens content, making Police Stations the prefered build. As a bonus, the same Police Stations will reduce Corruption and Waste even in times of peace. Also, in times of peace with as many luxaries as we have + Sistine's Chapel, we'd already have WLTPD without the Colosuseson the main land and will continue to do so until our city populations get much larger.

hi ,

each city should have both policestation and coloseum , in that order and asap

have a nice day

	18-01-2003 02:47									#23
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Double Post

Last edited by realpolitic on 18-01-2003 at 03:39

	18-01-2003 03:36									#24
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Hoover is will be built in 1-2 turns. Building factories now doubles our production, we should declare peace when the MPPs expire.

Rome and Germany will be drafting or poprushing Cavalry, which makes them weaker 20 turns from now. They will have to build factories and powerplants to keep up with our increase in production. Germany will get the ablity to build Panzers after we get Tanks, because of our tech lead. They will be less dangerous in the future,

Police Stations can wait until we prepare for the next war.

Colloseums - our shields are better spent on weapons, especially since there is concern of a Japanese attack. Building extra Infantry now means we wont need to build them for the next war, which will shorten it so less WW.

Republic - changing to it would be a good idea once we start our first tank war, since we'll have such effective weapons and not many city improvements left, we can fight for a long time, and then maybe go Commie.

Last edited by realpolitic on 18-01-2003 at 03:42