16-01-2003 01:53									#1
	Questions on Radar Towers Inflate your Upload Space

I have a whole series of questions on radar towers and their effects that I'm hoping either (1) someone has tested objectively, or (2) someone heard definitive answers via a Firaxis chat or otherwise (beta testers?). Some questions I have strong guesses as to the answer, but certainly no definitive answers.

We're told that radar towers ("RT") give combat bonuses of 25% for units within a 2 tile radius. On to the questions!

1. Does the bonus apply to a unit attacking from "RT+2 tiles" into an adjacent tile that is "RT+3 tiles?"

2. Does the bonus apply to bombardment attacks and defenses?

3. If yes to question 2, does the bonus apply to a bombardment from "RT+1" where the target is "RT+3?"

4. Does the bonus apply to naval units?

5. Does the bonus apply to air units? And if so, where does the air combat "take place" -- is it the city square in which a fighter on AS is stationed or is it the attacker's target tile or even elsewhere?

6. Does the bonus apply to non-units (i.e., city improvement, city population and terrain enhancement defense values)?

Anyone know?

Catt

	16-01-2003 03:51									#2
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Whoooa... that's some good question!!

	16-01-2003 06:20									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

also: do they work in enemy territory? (if the range extends into it)

	16-01-2003 08:17									#4
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX also: do they work in enemy territory? (if the range extends into it)

I asked this question awhile ago, but never got an answer. If anyone knows please speak up!

	16-01-2003 09:19									#5
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I also posted my questions on CFC - no answers yet, but a poster named Arathorn added some good ones (one of which is the same as UberKrux's good question).

Quoting Arathorn:

quote: 7. Do the benefits "stack" if you have more than one Radar Tower in an area? (e.g. 2 "in range" gives a 50% bonus) 8. Do the benefits work outside of your cultural boundary or are they limited by culture? 9. What is the defensive value of a radar tower, as a terrain improvement? (obviously only applicable for defense vs. bombardment) 10. What is the interaction of the answer to questions 6 and 9?

A poster named reagan responded that, WRT number 7:

quote: #7 - the bonuses do not stack if a unit is within two squares of two different towers. However, if one of the towers is destroyed, the other one offers continuing protection until it is destroyed.

I also believe I read this as a quote from a Firaxian, but can't remember where and can't find it via a simple search (but still believe it to be accurate).

Catt

	16-01-2003 13:03									#6
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Good questions Catt

I'm pretty sure on number 7 too, they are NOT cumulative AFAIK. No idea on the others though.

Maybe a tentative? yes on 8

Only once build them so far, but never even 'used' them.

EDIT: forgot a little 3 letter word which sort of changed the whole meaning of the sentence , sorry

Last edited by alva on 16-01-2003 at 18:52

	16-01-2003 17:21									#7
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I was going to post something to that effect yesterday, Alva. How do you use these well? By breaking it down into two categories, offensive and defensive actions, I can only see a few possibilities...

Offensively, you could keep a worker-gang near the front line of your army to keep slapping these down as the front moves away from your land and into your foe's. Except that you'd have to keep adding more workers to the gang because 1 radar tower=1 worker. I suppose if you ever had to beat a slow retreat in such a war (rather than standing there and taking it if your opponent shows up with a bigger army) you could make their counter-advance pretty ugly...but still, eugh?

Defensively, I could see using these along your border, sure. The only problem is that these appear right when the easiest means to wipe them out also appear...AIR RAID! Now you have to post fighters near your radar towers to guard your defensive bonus....except that most people (read:Not always the AI) won't attack you unless they're pretty sure they can overcome your fighter-cover if they intend to bomb you (which they should.) If your front moves *at all* inward, or you manage to make any headway in your war, your defensive bulwarks with radar towers are suddenly not-so-spiffy again.

How do you use these effectively? Am I missing something?

	16-01-2003 17:31									#8
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they aren't cumulative, i think that's stated in the manual. As far as the others go, i've no idea but would love to know....

i think you'll probably need to get an official answer on this one, unfortunately.

	16-01-2003 21:51									#9
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I'm not sure about their defensive rating as it pertains to bombardment, but it has been my experience that they are the last thing destroyed due to bombardment in their stack. For instance, if a radar tower is on a railroaded square, the railroad would have to be taken out in a bombard first, then the ensuing road, and finally the radar tower. I don't believe the troops on the square need to be redlined first, though I haven't done any major testing on this.

	16-01-2003 21:56									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

As far as uses go, if I build them, I build them in pretty defensible places. Mountains, for instance, and stack a couple of defensive troops on them. Behind chokepoints that already have forts , to help give them additional support.

Also, I tend to use captured workers to make these. It might take an extra turn or two, depending on terrain, but that's not really too terrible a price to pay. Other civs (mainly the ones that you stole the workers from) will look at you more favorably, as you no longer have the slaves, and it keeps you from adding too many foreign nationals to your cities.

	17-01-2003 00:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Bluefrog I'm not sure about their defensive rating as it pertains to bombardment, but it has been my experience that they are the last thing destroyed due to bombardment in their stack. For instance, if a radar tower is on a railroaded square, the railroad would have to be taken out in a bombard first, then the ensuing road, and finally the radar tower. I don't believe the troops on the square need to be redlined first, though I haven't done any major testing on this.

This has been my (limited) experience. The radar tower is last to be destroyed by bombardment and it seems that tile improvements are hit before troops.

	17-01-2003 03:57									#12
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Cerberus, troops are hit before terrain improvements, including towers. That's why the AI usually garrisons them.

Bluefrog, radar towers take no time to build, just the worker.

Conceptually, I prefer to think the radar towers are hardened command facilities. And no

	17-01-2003 04:06									#13
	Re: Questions on Radar Towers Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Catt We're told that radar towers ("RT") give combat bonuses of 25% for units within a 2 tile radius. On to the questions!

Following is guesses based on play experience

quote: 1. Does the bonus apply to a unit attacking from "RT+2 tiles" into an adjacent tile that is "RT+3 tiles?"

No because the battle tile is outside area of influence.

quote: 2. Does the bonus apply to bombardment attacks and defenses?

Yes, if both combatants have RT, they both get the bonus and thus counteract each other

quote: 3. If yes to question 2, does the bonus apply to a bombardment from "RT+1" where the target is "RT+3?"

As before, no. Battle is decided on basic of bonuses on the target tile not the source tile. If it was from the source, putting a RT by your airport, means a Steath Bomber would have a 25% bonus 15 tiles away.

quote: 4. Does the bonus apply to naval units?

Untested, but guess is yes.

quote: 5. Does the bonus apply to air units? And if so, where does the air combat "take place" -- is it the city square in which a fighter on AS is stationed or is it the attacker's target tile or even elsewhere?

Untested.

quote: 6. Does the bonus apply to non-units (i.e., city improvement, city population and terrain enhancement defense values)? Anyone know? Catt

How could a combat bonus apply to an improvement?


Hope this helps

== PF

	17-01-2003 04:11									#14
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quote: 7. Do the benefits "stack" if you have more than one Radar Tower in an area? (e.g. 2 "in range" gives a 50% bonus)

No

quote: 8. Do the benefits work outside of your cultural boundary or are they limited by culture?

They do work across culture boundaries.

quote: 9. What is the defensive value of a radar tower, as a terrain improvement? (obviously only applicable for defense vs. bombardment)

25%, the same as a river.

== PF

	17-01-2003 04:28									#15
	Re: Re: Questions on Radar Towers Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by planetfall How could a combat bonus apply to an improvement?

According to what seems to be the most UNreliable source on PTW (Prima's Strategy Guide), cits and city improvements get combat bonuses even for city size. How's that for an issue that is as easy to test as War Weariness!

It is conceivable that a tower could increase terrain improvements' strength from 16 to 20. I would not put money on it though.

	17-01-2003 18:41									#16
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Combat bonuses for citizens/improvements makes sense based on city size - the larger the city the harder it would be to destroy specific buildings or large numbers of citizenry. Radar Tower bonuses though? That wouldn't make much sense - advance knowledge of an attack would not allow a building to move to avoid it.

	17-01-2003 18:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Cerberus, troops are hit before terrain improvements, including towers. That's why the AI usually garrisons them. Bluefrog, radar towers take no time to build, just the worker. Conceptually, I prefer to think the radar towers are hardened command facilities. And no

Actually, they do take time to build. The base build time is 1, but it is modified by worker speed and terrain. Try building a radar tower with a captured worker on a mountain.

	19-01-2003 00:36									#18
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Catt:

My understanding of Radar Towers is that the combat bonuses only appy to air combat. They do not affect bombardment, nor land combat in any way. The tower also has the radar ability, allowing you to see 2 tiles. The bonus for air combat IIRC is 3 tiles, same as the interception radius.

	20-01-2003 06:10									#19
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I answered my own questions (largely). See this thread.

Catt

	20-01-2003 07:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Bluefrog Actually, they do take time to build. The base build time is 1, but it is modified by worker speed and terrain. Try building a radar tower with a captured worker on a mountain.

I did try building a radar tower with a captured worker on a mountain. It was INSTANTANEOUS.

Caveat: Industrious French.