17-01-2003 06:35									#1
	Black Holes ~ A StarGate? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Now, as you all know there has been alot of posting about "Black Holes" and it has been done over more than one thread. To keep this project in good organized order I hereby make this thread:
The main question is: should Black holes be in the game.
In all, these are the minor and major questions that we will be trying to figure out are which are as follows:

Stargate and the Black hole - Should Black holes be considered a stargate?

Game implementation - Should it be in the game?

White Holes or Parallel Universes? - Should Black holes be combined with White Holes or is that just for parallel universes?

Power Source? - Could Black holes be used to extract energy from it and used as a power source? ~ (It was discussed at the old FreeAc forum and I forgot if it was decided "yes")

Ok enough questions lets discuss!
-J.B.-

	17-01-2003 09:25									#2
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My ideas on the subject.

I think black holes should be in the game. However, with the following restrictions:
1) Black Holes are to be treated as rare "Anomalies/Specials".
2) Black holes are not to be used as a "gateway" (pun not intended). The main concern is the idea of "instant" transit across arbitrarily large distance. There can be, however, some other "phenomena" that can be used to speed up space travel.
3) Natural black holes should not be used as power source, however, artificial ones, may be used as a very late game power source.

Now further along, I'll discuss my thoughts on the treatment of "Anomalies/Specials".
a) These "Anomalies/Specials", including but not limited to black holes, can have negative or positive (or both) effects. For example, black holes presents danger in space travel, and may prevent FTL in nearby region. Yet, if you build a research station orbiting it (far enough of course), your scientists can gain some Research Bonus in relevant technology Field (e.g. Physical Science)
b) "Anomalies/Specials" encompasses things in many levels, from space anomalies like Black Holes, to sentient plants or dangerous predators on a planetary scales. Some Anomalies/Specials may be permanent (for the duration of the game), while others may disappear overtime, naturally or artificially (e.g. your citizens "pacified" a world that had some pesky native lifeforms.)
c) The frequency of the occurence of such Anomalies/Special depends on the type of Anomalies/Special (e.g. Black Holes are "rare" whereas say an "unusually rich biosphere" may be slightly more common), as well as the game settings.
d) Anomalies/Specials are mostly generated by the map generator at game start, but some may occur later as the result of "Random Events" or "Semi-Random Events"

Just some thoughts for the moment.

-Gateway103

	17-01-2003 10:22									#3
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Since my last post was deleted due to some technical difficulties, I shall try to restate all that I said:

1.) I agree to the fullest extent.

2.) No comment on that subject.

3.) I dont really think we would be able to recreate a black hole. It might be possible so i'm not taking any sides on the subject.

A.) I agree fully. ~ I especially like this one.

B.) I agree with this one.

C.) Yes I again agree.

D.) I agree.

I pretty much like all of them. Great job Gateway.

--

I have got an idea it might be crazy enough that it might actually work. If an alien were to create a singularity then they could jump to any point in space. For instance the aliens in the exodus came to earth through some form of singularity. So the aliens would need some sort of stargate, would they not?

-Just some of my ideas on this paticular subject.

-J.B.-

	17-01-2003 12:16									#4
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"Traditional" black holes represent the last stage of evolution of really big stars (>3-5 solar mass). Thus they aren't especialy frequent event for the habitable area (like corotation zone). In fact, all suspected black holes are somewhat too distant (for eager astronomers, at least). Stars becoming a black hole surely have violent history and will sear nearby systems with constant X-ray bursts. Hence we can't find any massive black holes near planets of colonization interest. StP is empire-building game, isn't it?
On other hand, universe may be filled with so-called "relic black holes", stale remaints of the early stages of high density. Nowdays (and couple billion years in future) this black holes have mass limit of >10^15 g, as any more light already explodes. According to current estimates, this holes may have density of ~billion per parsec cubed (not sure in the exact number, may miss for couple orders). This ones may, in fact, impose some difficulties with space travel if they will act via some very special ways on your FTL (can't grok how FTL works, so can't say more). Due to really low density, this holes aren't any hazard for STL travel, IMHO.

	17-01-2003 15:14									#5
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so then we dont use traditional black holes but the relics......but i would still support any kind of gateways.....maybe you have to build them (thinking about 'lost in Space The Movie') and so on.....about the rest what everbody said

	17-01-2003 21:26									#6
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Yes, Black Holes can be included, but not as Stargates: if White Holes exist they will pump out Matter NOT a spaceship... because of the force of gravity that squeeze the atoms, nothing that fall into a black hole can exit. IMO, with FTL travel is possible to escape from the Event Horizont, but it remains very difficult/dangerous.

	20-01-2003 13:03									#7
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If you'll write a metric for the spherical coordinates in presense of center-symmetry mass, you may find that there is something special for r=rg (gravity radius AKA event horizon) (1). But it isn't 100% true, as if we "move" to so-called sychronized system (moving with free-falling body) you'll see nothing special around event horizon, besides that you can't escape if already there. The true singularity lies at r=0, as you can see from the (2). So even if you FTL will escape event horizon, it will be extremly unhealthy to pass thru black hole center.
BTW, I think that usage of FTL near black holes must be completerly prohibited due to possible reality breaking (like "time mashines" and other dirty things).

Attachment: formula.jpeg
This has been downloaded 93 time(s).

Last edited by targon on 20-01-2003 at 13:43

	20-01-2003 21:56									#8
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*brain overloads*

	22-01-2003 00:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by targon "Traditional" black holes represent the last stage of evolution of really big stars (>3-5 solar mass). Thus they aren't especialy frequent event for the habitable area (like corotation zone). In fact, all suspected black holes are somewhat too distant (for eager astronomers, at least). Stars becoming a black hole surely have violent history and will sear nearby systems with constant X-ray bursts. Hence we can't find any massive black holes near planets of colonization interest. StP is empire-building game, isn't it? On other hand, universe may be filled with so-called "relic black holes", stale remaints of the early stages of high density. Nowdays (and couple billion years in future) this black holes have mass limit of >10^15 g, as any more light already explodes. According to current estimates, this holes may have density of ~billion per parsec cubed (not sure in the exact number, may miss for couple orders). This ones may, in fact, impose some difficulties with space travel if they will act via some very special ways on your FTL (can't grok how FTL works, so can't say more). Due to really low density, this holes aren't any hazard for STL travel, IMHO.

Sorry!! Really!! This is quite off-topic, but just is an inclusion:

Is the fact that bigger mass cases supernova not black-hole ending related to the big bang? So, is this strange explosion effect related to the strange force that makes the universe expansion and is opposed to gravity? Thanks.

Returning to topic.

	22-01-2003 13:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker *brain overloads*

Sorry, but I think that thread named "Black Holes..." would be bad without these formula. In fact, they are black holes (non-rotating, not charged kinds, at least). And if you'll look at the last term of (1) you could see why you can't reach that darned event horizon, BTW. Again, sorry for may be too technical point of view, if it scares you.

	22-01-2003 14:20									#11
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XarXo,
This strange force is nothing but inertia. Universe got its butt kicked ~16 billions years ago and still running. If your question is about the reasons for such a Big Kick, I can't say you anything: this moment is shadowed by phenomena unkonwn to our science, as it encompasses quantum gravity effects. We can't grok them. But this phenomena are completely absent in modern Universe, IMHO. Even supernova explosions are nothing compared with the Big Bang.

	22-01-2003 19:56									#12
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Yes, but seems that the border of gravity-win star endings is quite low (as gravity force compared to other), so the idea that simpy inercy is expanding the universe seems right. If universe were 2/3 times sun probably just appeared a black hole!

	23-01-2003 15:20									#13
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Not such a bad. Gravity radius for sun is ~3 km. So you need squize it really hard in order to make it a black hole.

	23-01-2003 21:38									#14
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Mmmm, it's me or I found something...? If we can establish a relation with the expansion speed of the universe and the factor that causes black holes... We can establish an aprox mass for the universe in Big Bang nope?

NOTE: I relate the acceleration of the universe in the emptyness atraction that causes the void to the mass. When higher mass surface exposed, higher acceleration. By the theory that in energetic-cause explosions the biggest masses usually are the first to expande, this masses caused a gravity pull of other masses to expand, and this is probably why the galaxy density is so high.

I think that we are in a young universe.

Last edited by XarXo on 23-01-2003 at 21:46

	24-01-2003 12:02									#15
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I can't agree with you in all your terms other than "young universe". If "young" == "long before death", you're right, IMHO.
But Universe expands not in terms like explostion expansion or any other "commonsence" thing. You see, there isn't any "empty space" for the universe to expand. There isn't anything besides Universe, at least universe can't act on any outside things (in any other case we would see it as flaws in conservation laws). So any forces in the Universe can't do anything with its forms, simply because there isn't any point to exert this forces on.
The only thing that does counts is mass distribution. Local space/time curvature tensor depends only on local energy/momentum tensor. So less dense universe == more flat, larger universe. Hence the Red Shift.

	24-01-2003 20:21									#16
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There's an empty space, yes, look, when higher is the mass fluctuation higher is the ?? dimensionsal turbulence ?? that originated universe. But the "empty space" is only an area that has entropy 0 and is modified by incoming turbulence. This space exist, but just doesn't is used in the dimensionsal variables that has the turbulence). Probably there are other universes that only exist in dimensions in the same ours, but this dimesnions and universes are fluctuations with different poperties... We can't understand teh universe if we don' know more about the Void.

Void probably is just the result of the aplication of lower level rules related to energy, probably is our universe in a future state of voidness reached by a fltctuation caused by the bigger entropy that originates the turbulence.

	27-01-2003 12:41									#17
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Does all this mean that you think Universe has some real 3D "frontier" surface, expanding into something?

	27-01-2003 19:10									#18
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My idea is that a dimension could be created by just put something somewhere according to the universe rules (that they are near to zero). This 3D frontier is a dimensional frontier. Energy continuum is just a universe rule (each point is void by the negation of opposite infinites).

	01-02-2003 07:12									#19
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A sufficient amount of time has past since the 16th so therefore I hereby tally the votes. The Vote stands for "yes". If anyone wants to vote quickly do so within a period of two days, any after that then I might be lenient but then trust the matter to be closed.
-J.B.-

	03-02-2003 12:08									#20
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OK, my vote is "Yes" for black holes: they may be neat story-making device; but don't mess up physics, please.

	03-02-2003 18:10									#21
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I give you my word that I will try and make it as realistic to real Physics as possible.
-J.B.-

	03-02-2003 19:52									#22
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OK, my vote is "No" for black holes: they should be removed from any type of transport system, an energetic production? probably yes. I don't continue this messing with physics.

	03-02-2003 21:25									#23
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How about the storyline angle? I was under the impression that the presence of habitable solar systems in close proximity to each other is already stretching the probabilities a little bit, but how do you explain the presence of black holes? Naturally occuring, or a part of fiendish Tal'Shian schemes?