11-01-2001 19:41									#1
	Supply Crawlers Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Most people build SCs, even I have heard of ones that never do. My question is, how many ones do you build, and on which squares do you put them?
IMO it seems right to have enough minerals from Crawlers for supporting all the units of that base, so that the support minerals are balanced, then 2-3 extra minerals, 1-2 energy, 3-5 nutrient. That would be good, but it's hard, that's why I prefer to design sea based Crawlers and use them.
So, any general thought on using them, or (perhaps) drawbacks?

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

	11-01-2001 20:16									#2
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It really depends on what you want to achieve, and in which phase of the game you are.

Mineral crawlers are great early on. Use them on forests first, then when you have EcoEng on mines
Food crawlers are necessary to support specialists (put them on farm+condenser tiles, if possible with nutrient bonus and later on with soil enricher).
Later in the game, energy crawlers are a must for your science city.

Foil crawlers are too expensive before the advent of Fusion.

I usually have at least two crawlers per base, and often more, but YMMV.

Aredhran

	11-01-2001 21:13									#3
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Solver,

Red H is on the money. Min crawlers in in the beginning to boot strap your industrial might. Normally you build as many min crawlers as you can per base just short of eco damage normally 16 ish mins. Dependingonthe size of your base and the ties actually crawlered this gives youhow many crawlers you'll use/base.

SP build normally happen at this point so continued build of crawlers for SP cash in is normally the next phase.

Assuming your a builder type, after that the emaphsis is nutrients for specialization and foil crawlers for energy. By this time restrictions should be lifted and you should be near if not at fusion to make the foil trawlers reasonably priced.

Use of any crawler/trawler is to my way of thinking always best served by harvesting high one resource sqaures.

So...

Rocky/roaded/mines - 4 mins
Farm/condensor/soil enricher - 6 nuts(significantly more if nutrient special 10 ish IIRC)
Tidal harnesses (with facility that allows +1 energy) 4 (5 if +2 econ) energy

Finally the grand daddy of t-forming - boreholes

I always attempt whenever possible to work boreholes rather than crawler them. They are too expensive in terms of T-forming time to waste half the resources. If your going to do that you have better t-forming options and crawler/trawler options to get better effects.

One thing is that crawlers/trawlers always retain value. In fact one thing you'll discover is that when you pop boom many of those crawlers you had bringing in mins are now taking you over the ecodamage point. trade them in for protoyping and/or SPs. Alternately reassign them to nutrient squares t-formed as above to start specializing.

There is always something for a crawler/trawler to do even if it simply means cashing them in.

Og

	11-01-2001 23:46									#4
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One quick question. I know I could figure this out on my own, but I’m lazy. Can supply crawlers harvest something for a city from outside that city's radius? In other words can they harvest from a square that no citizens of a base could work on?

	11-01-2001 23:53									#5
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Of course they can. That's the best place to use them, after you have all the base radii rocky/mine/road squares crawled. I get those first, then start heading for the farm/condensors or boreholes that my formers have been building in their extra time outside of my base areas.

Typically, I have every rocky/mine/road inside base radii crawled (ranges from 1-8 suqares usually), 3-5 borehole crawlers (energy typically to keep down eco-damage, but I switch as needed), and 5-10 on nutrient condesors. That's for every base, and by the games end, so it takes a while to build up to.

I consider the early game over once every base has it's mines crawled, which usually happens simultaneously with lifting mineral restrictions.

	12-01-2001 00:00									#6
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Thnx Fitz.


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"Are you good men and true?" Much Ado About Nothing, Act III, Scene III

	12-01-2001 01:07									#7
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Jesus...15+ crawlers per base? Just how much space to you put between your bases? I ALWAYS end up putting my bases so close together that their harvesting radi overlap or are right next to each other, so I never bother to use crawlers....

	12-01-2001 01:11									#8
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DBM when I read this, "Can supply crawlers harvest something for a city from outside that city's radius?", I was thinking of replying with something along the lines of "of course, that is the whole point of them". I then went on to read the reply from Fitz and BANG, it hit me that I am wasting workers farming squares, R/M/R, with no nuts. Supply crawlers, of course! So, firstly, I apologize for the bad thoughts about your question and thanks to Fitz who had the patience to teach both of us. You learn something new everyday and there really are no stupid questions.

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-you become responsible for what you tame-

	12-01-2001 01:49									#9
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I appear to be a "moderate" when it comes to supply crawler usage. generally I want every city to have at least 3 Rocky mined road (either in the base square or outside. On other squares I generally have forests and rely on workers for their ability to collect nuts/min/energy.

Later I will specialize-- I often build 2 or 3 SSC with first crawled nuts to grow big and then energy galore. Meanwhile cities on the exterior get more and more crawled minerals to build more and more units closer to the front (hate to "waste" turns travelling through my own territory). I rarely build farms except on nut specials. My cities are generally all forest except for farm/solar on specials, 1-2 boreholes per city and Mines on all rocky squares. I have even toyed with drilling aquifers since it can result in 5 or 6 squares with an instant travel route and energy boost.


I have read on these boards of the specialist cities where everything is crawlered in and the entire population are specialists. In SP that has just seemed to be too much work when victory comes fairly easily from other methods.

	12-01-2001 02:19									#10
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Sindai: I usually use a zero overlap pattern, with interlocking occuring on the corners. Think of it this way: From my first base, three diagonals in the four directions, plus one up/down or across, is my next base site.

Then I follow suit for the next expansion wave, from each available diagonal. At the minimum, this leaves a strip of three if I expand this pattern only up and down, and six if I go across. Since terrain rarely lets me expand the patter perfectly, I end up with all sort of strange little spots to build on, not even including costal areas that are perfect for boreholing.

Artemis: You're welcome.
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited January 11, 2001).]

	12-01-2001 04:58									#11
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I build more supply crawlers than all other units combined, in most SP games I play, mostly because of the fact that they retain their value, but for a number of other reasons besides Examples:

They make great, convenient "emergency base defenders" if I need a few extra units in a pinch.

Even if they're only harvesting 1-2r per turn, they're still "makin' money" for me, providing a nice return on investment

Zoc-blocking magic!

As part of an invasion force, they can deny an enemy resource rich squares, while providing me the benefits of those same squares (and this puts the enemy in something of a quandry...attack the crawlers to get the resources back, or attack the army that's threatening?)

spies...sorta....especially in the case of sea crawlers....they provide an early warning system to alert me of the presence of enemy fly-bys, or approaching ships loaded to the gills with marines, esp. if you equip them with the....::straining to remember:: special ability that lets them "see" further....forget what the heck it's called....damn...senility strikes again (and they do it while providing resources every turn they're in operation)

If you have an extensive road network, you need never fear that it will be used against you extensively by enemy military units, as strategically placed crawlers will block them at nearly every turn. Your units, however, can roam freely, and pick off, almost in leisurely fashion, those bogged down and stymied enemy troops.

Having crawlers out the wazoo means that even if you get a late start on a mid to late game SP, you can snatch it away from any other faction the turn you get the "X is nearing a major breakthrough on project such-and-so" by cashing in a few of your earlier investments.

With a "crawler carpet," (ie - crawlers everywhere, all bases housing specialists) you can eliminate such things as x-chopper attacks on your bases (they'll run out of moves LONG before they chew through your crawler-horde, assuming you don't deal with them before they get that close), and PB attacks.

Pound for pound, they're the most versatile unit in the game, esp. considering the fact that they're "clean"....

-=Vel=-

	12-01-2001 08:16									#12
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Gah. I suppose I'll actually have to TRY using these crawler thingamajigs in my next few games then. Maybe I'll actually be able to win on transcend for once.

Of course, I was also dubious about the value of X-Choppers originally (I didn't know about chopper's multiple attacks in one turn) before first visitng this forum. After seeing how everyone raved about tem, I decided to see what the fuss was about. And of course discovered how they're better than planet busters in most cases.

Oh, and Vel, you mean "Deep Radar". Lol. Now I feel smart.....

	12-01-2001 15:00									#13
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Where to use crawlers?

Simple answer: Crawler can only harvest on sort of resource, so they are best placed on mine/road.
I do this even in base radius, so the workers can work on farm/solar collector or forest.

Later in game, I build energy parks on high mountains or in inland seas.

	15-01-2001 10:36									#14
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Count me among the 'crawler carpet' specialist base players. Contrary to popular belief, this doesn't make the game harder / slower to play, but in fact makes it easier. Why?

1) My terraforming plans are quite simple. Forest pretty much every where first (until restrictions are lifted / pop boom time), then mine all rocky squares, borehole all legal squares, and condensor/farm everything else. Crawlers mean that I terraform a square to produce as much as it can, wherever it may be. The crawler will move the resource to the base in need.

2) I only work the boreholes, and any kelp / tidal harness squares within my base radius. Everything else is set up to maximize production of a particular commodity, and it gets a crawler. I build 'em, move 'em out, place 'em and forget 'em. Most of the time my crawler is placed in it's first turn of existence, and most of the time it never moves again.

3) Meanwhile my population is becoming more and more specialist, and less and less worker. This saves me a lot of time which I would otherwise spend looking at my workers trying to figure out whether they got chased to a less productive square by a worm or something. Either my trance crawler successfully defended against the worm or it didn't. Another key benefit is that with only a few workers, I only need a few happiness facilities. It all adds up to less base screen micromanagement. I decide what to build, and occaisionally change my specialist focus.


On another tangent, what is the most productive square in the game in the long run? It is neither the Borehole nor the Fungus square, but the redoubtable farm/condensor/soil enricher square. Compare:

Borehole = 6 mins + 6 energy

Fungus (late game) 3 Nuts + 4 Mins + 5 energy

Farm/Condensor/Soil Enricher = 6 Nuts

The Borehole requires 2 food being produced elswhere to support it's worker, or a crawler which effectively halves it's production.

Fungus will support a worker (two if you are the Gaians) and if you choose to crawler it, you will lose more than half of it's production.

The F/C/SE square will support it's worker, and two specialists. Or it can be crawled, and support three specialists. In this case the square need not even be in a base radius.

First a comparison at midgame between the Borehole and the F/C/SE square. (I am assuming that the Fungus would not be nearly as productive at midgame.) Assumptions:

Minerals are modified by base facilities = +50%, while Energy produced is modified by base facilities = +100%. There are not yet any satelites. I am also assuming that the F/C/SE square is being harvested by a crawler.

2 Boreholes = 12 Mins * Facility Bonus = 18 Mins
2 Boreholes = 12 Energy * Bonus = = 24 Energy

Total = 42 FOP

2 F/C/SE = 12 Nuts = 6 Engineers = 30 Energy,
* Facility Bonus = 60 Energy

Total = 60 FOP

So a slight edge for the F/C/SE square at midgame. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the cost of the crawler required to harvest the F/C/SE square is offset by the constant requirement for two Nutrients to support the worker of the Borehole, which is more than fair to the Borehole I think.

In the late game a formidable challenger to the F/C/SE square appears in the form of the Fungus square. Amongst it's advantages are it is very often available free of terraforming costs, which the F/C/SE square most definitely is not. But how does it stack up in the late game (when Fungus can really produce) in terms of pure productivity?

Assumptions:

Player has built numerous Food, Mineral and Energy Satelites, as well as numerous facilities which multiply his production of various FOPs. Thus Minerals are multiplied to +100% of base, while Energy is multiplied to +200% of base. The base in question is assumed to not have any impending hab limitation either.

2 Fungus = 6 Nuts (-4 for workers) = 2 Nuts = 1 Transcendi + another Nut from a satelite = a total of 1.5 Transcendi, + 1.5 Mins @ 1.5 Energy =

Transcendi produce 8 energy, + 1.5 energy from satelites = 9.5 Energy * Facility Bonus = 28.5 FOP

2 Fungus = 9.5 Minerals * Facility Bonus = 19 FOP

2 Fungus = 10 Energy * Facility Bonus = 30 FOP

Total 77.5 FOP


Now the F/C/SE square:

2 F/C/SE squares = 12 Nuts (-4 Nuts for Workers) = 8 Nuts = 4 Transcendi, 4 Energy from Sats, 4 Minerals from Sats, and 4 Food from Sats which in turn produces 2 more Transcendi, two more Energy, two more Mins and two more Nuts, which spawns another Transcendi, an Energy, a Mineral and yet another Nut, which I am going to round to zero for sake of my own sanity. Thus the totals should look something like this:

7 Transcendi * 8 Energy each * Facility Bonus = 168 Energy.

7 Energy * Facility Bonus = 21 Energy

7 Mins * Facility Bonus = 14 Mins

Grand Total = 203 FOP

In the late game you really don't need any mineral production via terraforming, only food as your satelites can send you copious quantities of minerals pollution free. Add to that the compounding of food production with food satelites (a nice 50% interest rate assuming you are pop booming) and you should blow up the game in short order.



[This message has been edited by Sikander (edited January 15, 2001).]