19-01-2003 03:21									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think we have a shot at the Great Library. We're the most powerful civ in terms of production, and we're very good at micro-management. The Great Library will help us catch up with research, and allow us the luxury of being able to keep the science slider at 0% until Education, thus saving lots and lots of money.
We can always keep the Colossus as a back-up option and switch our production to this wonder if we lose the race to the GL.

	19-01-2003 04:34									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sorry, but I don't think that we can go for the GL anymore... we should have done it 15 turns ago, if we really wanted it. Now, it's too much of a risk, as it's quite possible that more then one team is already working on it.

Sure, we could try to get it in Hurricane, and we might even succeed, but that city will be a lot better to us as a barrack-city... we need some defense.

DeepO

	19-01-2003 05:24									#33
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The Colossus is only 200 shields and most civs forget about it anyways. But its effects last till Electricity, and with all the extra money we bring in, we can afford to build more units, more city improvments, and research quicker.
When we get the republic, the amount of prod, comm, and food we get also increases (less corruption) This is an excellent double whammy.

	19-01-2003 06:17									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Right now we need to get a decent defense going. Once we have some veteran warriors and an iron supply we can hook up in a reasonable amount of time, and a few units more modern than warriors, we can start thinking about wonders, but I think it's too risky until then.

	19-01-2003 07:00									#35
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But... it's kind of an chicken-or-egg question, because once we start feeling comfortable, we don't have a decent shot at wonders neither.

I love the Colossus too, but again I think that if we want it, we should start on it right now. And doing so compromises our defense... we can't have both

DeepO

	19-01-2003 07:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO But... it's kind of an chicken-or-egg question, because once we start feeling comfortable, we don't have a decent shot at wonders neither. I love the Colossus too, but again I think that if we want it, we should start on it right now. And doing so compromises our defense... we can't have both

As our glorious leader is so fond of saying, we have to survive for all these other goodies to do us any good. If our starting position were worse, it might make sense to take some chances as the only way we have a realistic shot of winning. But with our free settler's enabling EotS to go into settler pump mode way ahead of schedule, I think we're better off playing a bit more toward the safe side, and we'll be stretched somewhat thin on defense for a while even without trying to go for a wonder.

	19-01-2003 07:31									#37
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true... which is what I wanted to say, to forget about all wonders for now.

DeepO

	19-01-2003 08:35									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

On the other hand, this is also true for the other teams. We only have one threat to deal with, Some have at least two neighbours.
They might be more friendy(at the moment) then the one we've got, but even then, I'm sure they need more defensive units to guard their borders then we do.

I'm not saying we should go for a wonder here, just stating that others arn't gonna use all their city's just to build wonders.
(anyway, I' not that much of wonder builder anyway, they loose a lot of their potential in this game too IMO. Except for the colossus,GLibrary, and maybe the Glighthouse.)

	19-01-2003 09:07									#39
	Support Apolyton

Defense, please.

	19-01-2003 09:22									#40
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by alva On the other hand, this is also true for the other teams. We only have one threat to deal with, Some have at least two neighbours. They might be more friendy(at the moment) then the one we've got, but even then, I'm sure they need more defensive units to guard their borders then we do.

Absolutely right. As far as we know, we may have the easiest to defend border, while all the other civs (except Vox maybe) need to defend themselves from multiple directions.

	19-01-2003 09:29									#41
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Rumor has it (as of last I heard) that Lego may have a land mass all to themselves. If so, and considering that they start with Alphabet, going for the Great Library and/or Great Lighthouse could be an excellent move for them.

	20-01-2003 00:58									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

.. in which case going for those ourselves would be a waste. I think that the land we have is easily defendable. Once we hook up horses, and get some horsemen, we should be alright

We need to station some troops in the mountains to prevent an easy rush down the spine of the range. The troops will be defenders just preventing the use of the range as a huge funnel to send and protect enemy troops right up to Eye of the Storm and Hurricane.

Horsemen can pick off anyone in the plains.

	20-01-2003 01:26									#43
	Support Apolyton

Horsemen? We've got WCs... these are cheaper

DeepO

	20-01-2003 01:44									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Question is: do we want to build WCs, knowing that if we are forced to use them we will trigger our GA early, or do we want to build horsemen, which are identical (besides the ability to move on any type of terrain) but cost 50% more shields?
My answer: build / upgrade warriors to swordsmen, and escort them with WCs. If possible, try not to fight with the WCs and only use them to round off slow enemy units and such. Also, research in the direction of Republic in order to switch out of Despotism as fast as possible, hopefully before we have to trigger our GA and waste tons of shields because of the stupid 'standard tile penalty' that Despotism imposes.

	20-01-2003 01:57									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Horsemen require Warrior Code and Horseback Riding. They also cost more. I do not want to waste our GA as much as anyone, but if we are forced into battle, we should not be afraid to use our WCs.


Dominae

	20-01-2003 02:31									#46
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Well... I see WCs as some kind of guarantee. They will be able to be upgraded later, and can repell immortals now if we need to. Of course, we don't want to blow our GA too soon, which is another reason to speed to a gov change.

As to warrior / swords upgrade: we should keep them ready, so we can use them if we need to, but I wouldn't upgrade anyone right now.

DeepO

	20-01-2003 03:09									#47
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If we build WCs now, and dont go to war, we will be wasting shields that we could have used elsewhere. But if we dont build them and Vox attacks and we dont have anything else, then we are screwed.

I've never like War chariots because they are wheeled, and rather weak, and will trigger a golden age way to early. With all of the hills and mountains and jungles along our coasts, we will not be able to use them very effectively outside of the central plain. With the jungle limiting their effectiveness in the north, the War Chariots are no longer an offensive weapon aka. they cannot bring the battle to Vox's cities. To do so would require a huge investement in clearning the jungle.

These types of terrain also mean that catapults and the like will not be able to threaten us for a while. Therefore, the conclusion at this time would be the build warriors/spearmen/swordsmen/horsemen for our offense/defense without having to waste resources at roading and clearning far from our centers

The key to any war will be the mountains. The side which can effectively use them to shield their weaknesses (for example Immortal on defense) will win the war.

	20-01-2003 03:24									#48
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LoA, we can't risk not building them now. Notice the road Vox is building towards us... they would be wise not to fully connect (leaving one jungle tile unroaded, so our WCs can't get through), but we'll have a path sooner then we think, as they are helping.

True, the mountains will be key, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vox uses the road to settle a city near the fish and wheat (site #12 on the original city site proposal). We are hesitating, as it will compromise our defense, but they could very well go ahead, gambling on our expansion and thus non-attacking mode.

It seems everyone agrees that going offensive now is not ideal for us, as it could maybe solve the Vox problem, but leave us behind on a world scale. WCs are for me pure defensive: so far, they can be used on all our cities, and with a little jungle clearing and mountain roading this should hold for quite some time.

As this is the 'what to research next?' thread, allow me to state that I don't value HBR at all unless we want to attack Vox, instead of defending ourselves. There are a lot of other techs to get to first...

DeepO

	20-01-2003 03:25									#49
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LoA, I believe our strategy at this point is to prepare for a Voxian attack with Swordsmen and War Chariots. When they make the first move, our cheaper and faster WCs will easily repel their Immortals on open ground. To not use WCs for this would render our defense a lot less effective. Yes, we would lose our GA, but hopefully so will Vox. We are not planning any attack on their lands at this point.


Dominae

	20-01-2003 04:11									#50
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Alright. Do we know if there is another civ close to Vox?

	20-01-2003 04:33									#51
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Yes there is... but we haven't figured out with whom they have contact in-game. Look for 'our mailbox thread', and see what's in there, you'll find some of the files quite handy to catch up

DeepO

	20-01-2003 04:47									#52
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heh. ok i get the picture.