17-01-2003 13:56									#1
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We'll be finished with Alphabet soon, and we need to figure out what we want to do next after that.

One thought I've had is to offer Vox a deal where we'll research Writing and trade it to them for some significantly cheaper tech or another (depending on what they're researching) plus in-game contact with Civ X. As both an additional sweetener and a leg up toward Republic, we could offer a second stage where we then research Code of Laws while they research Phiilosophy and afterward make an even swap. As part of the package, I'd want a provision that each side has an exclusive right to sell or trade the tech they researched to other civs, but we might include a provision that any additional in-game contacts either of us obtains will be given to the other. (One of my goals with Writing would be to see how far we can go trading it for contacts.)

That would offer Vox tech trades on highly favorable terms plus the chance at writing and thus contact beyond their immediate neighbors a little sooner than they could research it themselves. On our side, it would (hopefully) free us from the need to research Map Making and speed us along the road to Republic. There might, though, need to be a provision through which the Philosophy for Code of Laws part of the deal can be deferred should we find ourselves in a situation where we feel like we need Map Making after all.

Nathan

	17-01-2003 19:24									#2
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Nathan,

I had thought of the same trade idea: writing for contact with Civ X plus something else, where "something else" could be a cheap tech (like what, though?) or money.

Option #2: Mapmaking.

Option #3: Monarchy beeline

Going with #2 slows us down in terms of going for a government, but it does allow galleys & map trading (yeah, right). We can then circumvent the chokepoint, and possibly give the Voxians something to think about should they want to attack us (galleys dropping troops behind their lines).

#3 is tricky. The AI loves to pay for the techs on that route, and we've all used it in SP to trade our way to parity while going for a good military government and hoarding upgrade cash. But if I was a human player researching toward republic, and somebody offered me Polytheism for trade... I might offer them something minor, but I'd rather just head to republic, get the commerce bonus and then research polytheism at reduced cost myself than pay through the nose for it. Accordingly, unless we intend to get to Monarchy and then try to kill Vox, I think we should go toward republic.

-Arrian

	17-01-2003 19:43									#3
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As far as I know, there is no WW in MP (can someone prove them wrong on this?). So The Republic is always better than Monarchy. After Alphabet, we'll be 4 techs away from either, so I see no reason to go for Monarchy other than tech costs or the HG.


Dominae

	17-01-2003 21:38									#4
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Well.. I think writing would be the best way for now. And mapmaking, depending on whether we will be able to trade it with RPG or not... we definately need galleys, if only to settle our abundant settlers on some other continent.

But here's another idea to throw into the group: why wouldn't we use the same tactics as we would in SP: research something completely off the wanted route, trading it to all other civs for something nicer? I was thinking of going for construction after writing: probably, all the other teams will be going for a government, which should leave the path to construction wide open. In case we get enough contacts after writing, and in case we can make some deals beforehand, this could be a better option if we would be comepletely alone to research it.

Plus, in our fast expanding world, construction wouldn't be a bad idea anyhow, it's just that normally a government tech takes priority. After that, currency would again be a good one.

As always, this is not a real proposal, just something to bend your minds on... it might be exactly the crazy thing we need to get well on top

DeepO

	17-01-2003 23:38									#5
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Interesting idea, DeepO, but Construction is more expensive than Philosophy and Code of Laws combined and Currency is only one cheaper than Philosophy and Code of Laws combined (not to mention the need for Mathematics). Looking at tech costs, our fastest route to Republic would be a combination of:

1) Research Code of Laws ourselves (unless someone has a head start) because we're the fastest researchers in the game.
2) Arrange for someone else to research Philosophy so we can trade Code of Laws for it.
3) Arrange for a third civ to research Literature and trade Code of Laws for that once they get it. (The two techs are equal cost.) That might let us build some libraries along the way to Republic, but we wouldn't have to wait for it before we start on Republic.

(If we find out someone else has a head start on Code of Laws, it might be worthwhile for us to go for Literature to trade for it.)

In regard to getting galleys in order to settle other land masses, I'm skeptical that it would be worthwhile due to corruption, not to mention that off-continent posessions aren't exactly the easiest things in the world to defend. I'd rather wait until we can swing some kind of trade deal for Map Making or, if we can't get a deal we like, research it at the faster rate Republic will make possible. (Assuming, that is, we can trade for contact with most of the other civs, either through Vox or by having another civ get Map Making and come to us.)

One last thing: having galleys to do an end run around Vox is a lot more important in an offensive war than in a defensive one. In an offensive war, Vox can attack first, so a head-on clash between our entire military and Vox's entire military at a single point would give Vox a huge advantage given equal force sizes. But if Vox attacks us, especially if we can settle #12 and clear some land around it, we would have the initiative advantage in a straight-up fight. Certainly, it would give us some added benefit even in a defensive war if Vox can't be sure we won't sneak troops around behind them, but the difference would not be nearly as great.

Nathan

	17-01-2003 23:58									#6
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Nathan,

I agree re: galleys in war, I was just saying that a side benifit would be giving Vox something to think about. It doesn't mean we would actually use the galley end-around in a defensive war (at least not at first. Step 1 would be to massacre their invasion force). The main purpose is exploration/contact.

Dominae,

No WW in MP??? What!? That's a big deal, are you sure? Hey Soren, are you hanging around? Can you answer this one?

-Arrian

	18-01-2003 00:14									#7
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Arrian, there have been tests done (at CFC, I think) that showed no WW effects in human-only MP games. This, plus the fact that no one has bothered to disagree with it, makes me relatively certain. So, I suggest we either trade for Mysticism and Polytheism, or research them last.


Dominae

	18-01-2003 00:25									#8
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That's what I read too, no WW. I doubt it's a bug, but at least they could have said so in the manual.

	18-01-2003 00:29									#9
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Hmmm... what about this: Vox goes for writing, we go for mathematics. We trade, and direct research to construction. Trade for Vox's code of laws + all contacts (if we haven't met anyone yet), after which we trade it onward to the rest of the world. If we still have a shot at it, start on currency (could also come before construction).

Not ideal, I agree. But maybe we can insert it in our plans... I like the idea of having a tech we could trade to at least 4 teams... it should net us a lot. Of course, the diplomatic timing would be enormous, but I wouldn't mind using some techs to get a GoW contract on someone that is getting close to us

DeepO

	18-01-2003 00:36									#10
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If we want to trade for contacts, we're going to have to make an offer Vox cannot refuse. If I were in Vox's position, I would expect great compensation for letting GS into the trading circle. Construction for Code of Laws and all contacts will simply not cut it.


Dominae

	18-01-2003 00:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Hmmm... what about this: Vox goes for writing, we go for mathematics. We trade, and direct research to construction. Trade for Vox's code of laws + all contacts (if we haven't met anyone yet), after which we trade it onward to the rest of the world. If we still have a shot at it, start on currency (could also come before construction). Not ideal, I agree. But maybe we can insert it in our plans... I like the idea of having a tech we could trade to at least 4 teams... it should net us a lot. Of course, the diplomatic timing would be enormous, but I wouldn't mind using some techs to get a GoW contract on someone that is getting close to us

Mathematics is the same cost as Writing, so by the time we could get Construction and make all those deals, we could have researched Writing, Code of Laws, and Philosophy all ourselves. And that's not even considering the potential time savings of having someone else research Philosophy while we get Code of Laws. Worse, if someone else does the Philosophy-for-CoL thing, we could actually find ourselves starting work on Republic after someone else, robbing ourselves of the advantage of having a monopoly on that technology for a while.

I also dislike how complex and long-term the Construction-based scheme would be. If we can't make the right deals at the right times on terms that would protect our patent rights, we could find ourselves in a rather awkward position.

	18-01-2003 01:04									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If we want to trade for contacts, we're going to have to make an offer Vox cannot refuse. If I were in Vox's position, I would expect great compensation for letting GS into the trading circle. Construction for Code of Laws and all contacts will simply not cut it.

Keep in mind that they have the threat of our making contact some other way hanging over them. If they sell us contact, they get something out of the deal. If we make contact using galleys, they might hold us back a little, but they themselves get nothing. Unless they don't care at all about their position relative to the rest of the world besides us, they're better off dealing if they can get a good offer. (Then there's also the diplomatic side - if they want peace, standing in the way of our contacting other civs would not be the best way to get it!)

Nathan

	18-01-2003 01:05									#13
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True.. let me sleep on this. Maybe there is a good way...

DeepO

	18-01-2003 01:16									#14
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Hm, you point makes sense Nathan, but I'm not sure the advantage gained by trading with us independentely outweighs the advantage they get by brokering to the other civs. Sure, we could get MapMaking, but they can keep a close eye on this (since we're tech partners now, sort of), and will not be caught in the sort of situation you mention.

But we can our inital offer as low as we want. I'm just warning that we should not base our strategy on it, as I think Vox will be reticent to let us "meet the world".


Dominae

	18-01-2003 01:37									#15
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We're not stupid AIs that you can wait until the very last minute to sell contact to. Once we start working on Map Making, any hope Vox has of selling us contact is probably gone. (And we can spell that out explicitly if they get fussy with us.) Further, they can't make anything from tech brokering if we refuse to sell them anything they could broker.

You're right that Vox will be reticent to offer us contact with the rest of the world. But if we're willing to offer them a good deal for it, I think it's in their best interest to deal. I just hope they see it the same way. (And no, I'm not inclined to bet the game on their seeing it the same way; that's one of the places that could go wrong in DeepO's Construction scheme.)

Nathan

	18-01-2003 02:09									#16
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Once we start working on Map Making, any hope Vox has of selling us contact is probably gone. (And we can spell that out explicitly if they get fussy with us.)

I think that's a good threat, but it might not come out in the execution. I would rather trade for contacts ASAP instead of waiting to get MapMaking, divert some resources to build a boat, and wait to actually contact another civ (what is that, like 30 turns from when we begin researching Map Making?...admittedly a slightly pessimistic estimate).

We're not stupid AIs (I'm not!) that will trade Contacts when contact is inevitable. In fact, we're smart enough to figure out when it is worth it, and when it is not. Up until our boat is happily about half way up the coast (East, presumably), I think getting their contacts is a smart move.


Dominae

	18-01-2003 02:51									#17
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Wow, no WW. Not reason at all for Monarchy, then (well, MP happiness bonus, but we appear to be on chieftain with 2 local luxury supplies, hah!).

I say we go for Writing next, attempting to work out another trade deal with Vox including contact. If that fails, after Writing we can research Mapmaking (by that point we will be in a better position to actually order a city to build a galley).

-Arrian

	18-01-2003 03:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wow, no WW. Not reason at all for Monarchy, then (well, MP happiness bonus, but we appear to be on chieftain with 2 local luxury supplies, hah!).

I have yet to see a situation where Monarchy+MPs makes more sense than Republic+Lux Slider.

	18-01-2003 03:47									#19
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Extended wars are a great reason to use Monarchy. My AU202 game was a good example of this.

Nathan, the way you play the game involves focusing on economy and building up overwhelming force. When you finally attack, the wars are usually over in short order, so you do not have to deal with WW. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

But generally, it is very possible to run into WW problems when in Republic, especially if the AI is of the "Killer" variant. Even if you run up against a strong AI and the Luxury slider is not more help, it is all too easy to sign a peace treat and avoid the problem. I imagine this is not possible in MP. Thus, if WW were a factor, I believe Monarchy would be a very good option.

Edit: Hm, I did not address your main point. Basically I'm arguing that Military Police and Monarchy would be very useful in MP, where you need to defend your cities better already, and WW would likely be a major factor (if it were to, in fact, exist).


Dominae

	18-01-2003 04:15									#20
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I was referring specifically to the context of no war weariness. Change the balance to Republic + Luxury Slider - War Weariness vs. Monarchy + MPs, or even vs. Monarchy without MPs, and I'll certainly agree that there are times when Monarchy is vastly superior.

You're right about what most of my wars are like. But I recall a certain CivFanatics GOTM where I felt a need to take out a larger Japan that had similarly advanced units (late ancient era) and roughly equal culture on a large map with relatively few civs. That was a slugging match on a grand scale, and I was in Monarchy long before it was over.

Nathan

	18-01-2003 05:53									#21
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Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but I have an idea which I'd like to hear some feedback about:

RP said earlier that they might send a galley our way. Perhaps we could offer to trade them writing in exchange for all of their contacts and some gold as soon as they meet with us. In fact, I think we should hammer out a trade deal such as this as soon as possible and send it to RP, so that they'll be more eager to send a galley our way and establish contact with us faster than they would otherwise.

	18-01-2003 06:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but I have an idea which I'd like to hear some feedback about : RP said earlier that they might send a galley our way. Perhaps we could offer to trade them writing in exchange for all of their contacts and some gold as soon as they meet with us. In fact, I think we should hammer out a trade deal such as this as soon as possible and send it to RP, so that they'll be more eager to send a galley our way and establish contact with us faster than they would otherwise.

Check the tech tree. They have to get Writing before they can get Map Making and build galleys. (Of course if I recall correctly, RP is Commercial and therefore started with Alphabet, which means they might have Writing and be working on Map Making by now.)

But we might be able to swing a trade with them involving Map Making and our next research project past Writing. And the prospect of a RP galley looking for us to establish contact might provide additional leverage with Vox in contact negotiations. Edit: and if they're focusing so much on galleys, we may catch them light on military techs, which might give us something we could trade for contacts. Then again, they may be getting all the military techs they have a use for from tech deals closer to home.

Nathan

	18-01-2003 15:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Check the tech tree. They have to get Writing before they can get Map Making and build galleys. (Of course if I recall correctly, RP is Commercial and therefore started with Alphabet, which means they might have Writing and be working on Map Making by now.)

I'm so stupid

	18-01-2003 15:22									#24
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In case anyone misses it, I checked the science advisor on the turn I just finished playing and he says we're backward. That means we'll probably be playing catch-up on tech for a while, although when we get Alphabet and (presumably) trade it for Iron Working, that should go a long way toward closing the gap. We need to keep in mind that the civs on the main continent are probably somewhat ahead of us, though.

Nathan

	18-01-2003 15:50									#25
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From my experience, being two techs behind in the ancient age is often enough to be called backward by the science guy.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay We need to keep in mind that the civs on the main continent are probably somewhat ahead of us, though.

Not to mention that they might have gotten several techs from goodie huts and then traded them around, while we only got one hut which contained a settler (our crazy luck).

	18-01-2003 16:13									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber From my experience, being two techs behind in the ancient age is often enough to be called backward by the science guy.

If that's true, we might be back on par (or at least very close to it) when (and assuming) the Alphabet for Iron Working deal goes through.

quote: Not to mention that they might have gotten several techs from goodie huts and then traded them around, while we only got one hut which contained a settler (our crazy luck).

The only way they'd get very far from huts is if they'd already done a fair amount of trading before popping the last huts. Huts in Civ 3 (in stark contrast with the CTP games) yield the lowest-value tech that you have the prerequisites for and aren't already researching, so until civs start trading, they're likely to get stuff others already have (Mysticism being the most notable exception, but it's cheaper than Alphabet).

	18-01-2003 17:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If that's true, we might be back on par (or at least very close to it) when (and assuming) the Alphabet for Iron Working deal goes through.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed (which makes typing unbelievably harder, btw).

In the mean time, perhaps there's something we can do to seed distrust between the civs on the main continent, thus slowing down their mutual research and tech trading. Something within the legal boundaries of the game, I mean
Any creative ideas?

	19-01-2003 01:20									#28
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creative ideas to build distrust? Easy... hire the GoW.

DeepO

	19-01-2003 01:25									#29
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Let us build the Colossus to bring wealth into the cities of Aegypt. Our Industrious workers can quickly build roads which will benefit the wonder and its effects.
As for research, I say we head towards the republic.

	19-01-2003 01:40									#30
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I certainly agree for go to republic ASAP.

re: GOW:
The trouble is besides slower tech, there's nothing to gain from it.

The colossus would be nice... but is it possible?