17-01-2003 15:15									#1
	Turn 35 Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- We possess 26 gold and are running 2 deficit.
- Researching Alphabet at 100%.

Urgent questions:
- none

Military:
- Slash continues to explore along the west coast, goes 2 next.
- Hack fortifies, Ouch stays fortified, if Tim and Willy don't move.
- Zonk and the Settler go 2, towards site #3. 1 turn to go.

Economy:
- No changes this turn. (Might want to make sure Hurricane's new laborer lands on the grassland in the interest of paranoia.)

Diplomacy:
- nothing for now.

Last edited by nbarclay on 17-01-2003 at 15:42

	17-01-2003 16:30									#2
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Well, what about the Vox roading effort south of the isthmus?
are we going to just let them go on, when we have no way of blocking their roading effort all the way towards the jungle (and even beyond). It doesn't seem like they appreciated our falling back... (and i asked myself back then- what's the point in gestures of goodwill, when Vox certainly doesn't care about these kind of notions). Having only one warrior up there is IMHO an unnecessary risk.

	17-01-2003 16:55									#3
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Well, what about the Vox roading effort south of the isthmus? are we going to just let them go on, when we have no way of blocking their roading effort all the way towards the jungle (and even beyond). It doesn't seem like they appreciated our falling back... (and i asked myself back then- what's the point in gestures of goodwill, when Vox certainly doesn't care about these kind of notions). Having only one warrior up there is IMHO an unnecessary risk.

What do you propose doing with the second warrior?

	17-01-2003 17:12									#4
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There's a 2 tile-wide choke point which we could block momentarily, in order to delay Vox's roading efforts. Should we try this?

Btw, isn't it great how Vox's worker is building a road instead of improving their territory? So what if they'll have a road to us, they probably won't have a lot of immortals to attack with (with their lousy starting location and poor allocation of workers and other resources).
At the end of the day, the smart economists emerge triumphant.

	17-01-2003 17:21									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber There's a 2 tile-wide choke point which we could block momentarily, in order to delay Vox's roading efforts. Should we try this? Btw, isn't it great how Vox's worker is building a road instead of improving their territory? So what if they'll have a road to us, they probably won't have a lot of immortals to attack with (with their lousy starting location and poor allocation of workers and other resources). At the end of the day, the smart economists emerge triumphant.

If we block them, we pretty much ruin our chances of leveraging a good relationship with Vox in the early game to help us relative to the other teams. I view Vox as too useful to us in the short term and not likely enough to be dangerous in the long term for it to be worth our antagonizing them. And that goes triple before the second part of our two-stage trade deal goes through, while they could use our "aggressive" actions as an excuse not to honor a deal that would give us a military technology.

In any case, by the time Slash could get back and into position, their worker will be finished and moved on to his next project. If they're planning to road into the two-tile-wide area, we can't stop them without violence.

	17-01-2003 18:20									#6
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We decided to go the way of peace and trade, at least for now. This needs a certain amount of trust at both sides. To block them now and box them in would be inacceptable for them. Imagine, if they would do this with us, what would we do? And who of us would be the loudest to scream war?

We can't afford this approach. The minimap trade so far has shown, that probably at least 3 of the other civs are at the same continent. They most likely trade techs and already are advanced, compared with us. We need Vox as trade partner, and we need our resources to expand instead of building, maintaining and reinforcing huge invasion armies.

Let's for this time show Vox, that we are good and reliable neighbors. Try to make them trust us, and try to show them, that we trust them. That means in no way, that we should not build armed forces, but all we need at the moment is a small, efficient militia, that could hold off a small sized Voxian army (they can't have a huge army yet), till our economy is switched to war production.

	17-01-2003 21:25									#7
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I agree in full, Sir Ralph.

DeepO

	17-01-2003 23:12									#8
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I agree, but we could use this to bargain. Afterall they gain from it, so we should too.

	17-01-2003 23:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by alva I agree, but we could use this to bargain. Afterall they gain from it, so we should too.

Use what to bargain? And use it how?

	17-01-2003 23:56									#10
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I believe alva is referring to our ability to block the isthmus, if we so choose. The problem with bargaining with this is that we would be implicitly stating that we do not trust them (as mentioned above), which is bad.


Dominae

	18-01-2003 00:21									#11
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Dominae is correct, but do we think they trust us now, or if we don't block the isthmus they will.
Thay didn't change their mind about exploring our south, until they saw more warriors popping up then they expected.
If they are building a blood path, we do good on delaying them as much as possible.

	18-01-2003 00:34									#12
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(1) We don't have the ability to block the isthmus at this point.

(2) Even if we did, how would our blocking them be any less bad than what they did to us exploring while blocking us from exploring? If we regarded their actions as worth fighting over, shouldn't they regard ours the same way? Not to mention the hypocrisy that would be involved.

(3) Once we get writing, Vox is our gatekeeper to foreign contact. That alone is a good reason to keep on good terms with them for the time being.

	18-01-2003 00:47									#13
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I want to reamain at peace with VOX too(for now), with have to keep looking at things from more then one angle IMHO.

quote: If we regarded their actions as worth fighting over, shouldn't they regard ours the same way?

True, but in the end, no war was started. They got a (minor) victory over us. Nothing holds us from doing the same thing.

quote: Not to mention the hypocrisy that would be involved.

Just call it politics

	18-01-2003 11:11									#14
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Turn's here. Guess I get to play another one.

	18-01-2003 11:22									#15
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Team Scores:

65 (+1) Gathering Storm
76 (+1) Demogyptica
65 (+1) Glory of War
70 (+1) Role Play
62 (+0) Vox Controli
58 (+1) Lux Invicta
74 (+2) Legoland

Four turns of +2 for Lego. I wonder whether they've used the settler they built recently yet.

	18-01-2003 11:27									#16
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Vox finished roading that tile. It's not showing as connected with anything, but I'm guessing that's just because we don't have any current observations of the hill to see that they roaded it too.

We're back in first in productivity on F11 (verified as being in a tie with someone). Vox climbed relative to us on the power graph for the second turn in a row; I wish I knew what they were up to.

None of Vox's forces have moved from where we last saw them. Making our moves (and staying still) as planned.

	18-01-2003 11:49									#17
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F7 is blank.

Military advisor calls our military average.

Science advisor calls us backward!!!

Screenshots sent.

	18-01-2003 12:01									#18
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Turn sent. Sorry no one was here to "enjoy" it with me (at least in anything but stealth mode), although having our science advisor call us backward isn't particularly enjoyable. Maybe we'll be doing better when we get Alphabet (4 turns projected research time) and trade it for Iron Working.

	18-01-2003 13:57									#19
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quote: Vox climbed relative to us on the power graph for the second turn in a row; I wish I knew what they were up to.

Are they saving up and building warriors?

	18-01-2003 14:01									#20
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quote: Science advisor calls us backward!!!

Not fun indeed, but expected I guess, other teams have more contacts, which means that even if they don't trade, their research is likely to be cheaper.

VOX is costing us alot of gold by prohiting to get in contact to civX

	19-01-2003 01:23									#21
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Power: I don't think this is an indication of troops, it's a money thing. Don't forget we're using 2 golds per turn now, this will also show in the power ratio. They are not saving big, but if they make 1 gold, and we lose 2, it should look like this.

DeepO