17-01-2003 16:21									#1
	Does no-one here remember BOF? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hello all,

Just reading through all the games that everyone here is using as their baseline for comparison of MOOIII (SMAC, IGII, SEIV and of course MOOI+MOOII crop up quite alot), but did no one here ever play "Star Trek: Birth of the Federation"? It's the best space empire strategy game i've ever palyed (and not cos of the Star Trek aspect, i'm not a Trekkie).

Anyone at all remember it?

Jon...

	17-01-2003 16:36									#2
	Support Apolyton

I remember it was buggy as all hell. Unfortunately BOF, like many of the ST titles, never reached its full potential. Its developers were rushed into finishing the game before it was really playable. The patches, which have since ceased, improved gameplay somewhat, but BOF remains another botched attempt on capitalizing on the Star Trek franchise. Don't get me wrong, I love the game (until it starts taking five minutes to compute a single turn...), but I was always fustrated by how it had all the potential to be an incredible game...and came out one step above lemonware.

If it REALLY is "the best space empire strategy game" you've ever played, you need to get some more games...

	17-01-2003 17:08									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

... apart from the ever-expanding-next-turn-wait phenomena, i never experienced any bugs with it at all.

I'm not saying it's perfect, i'm just a bit miffed as to why it is so constantly overlooked. a lot of features that peaople are discussing (in the context of MOOIII), don't seem that new to me... i'm thinking in particular of someone's (can't remember who or where, sorry) comment about the diplomacy system, and touches like an empire's morale/unrest level being adversely affected if you declare war on an erswhile ally. BOF did that.

stiil, i can't wait for MOOIII. i actually dusted off BOF especially to get me in the mood!!!

Jon...

	17-01-2003 18:58									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yep, I think BOTF is a pretty good game.
I bought it because it seemed to be like MOO2 but certainly different.
Had no bugs or crashes.
It might be a good idea to play it again.

	17-01-2003 19:40									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry, but I did not care for the "you can influence everyone you meet to join you against the enemy strategy" which was the only way to win.

I also remember too much MM, like having to check every planet almost every turn.

	17-01-2003 19:54									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I really liked BOTF. However i never played it a lot, as it came out, when SMAC was still fairly new. I remember that BOTF could turn into a micromanagement hell, when you got far enough into the games.

Asmodean

	17-01-2003 20:02									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, MM was (is) extreme. But by the time it becomes a major issue (like when you have 40-odd systems), you've pretty much won anyway, and you're so rich you can afford just to let them miss-manage themselves.

As an aside... Asmodean; are you a Wheel of Time fan?

Jon...

	17-01-2003 20:05									#8
	Got spare money?

How could anyone not be a WOT fan? That's like asking if people enjoy the sun coming up or prefer breathing to drowning...

	17-01-2003 20:09									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I didn't want to make an assumption is all... it could well have been some kind of literary of historical reference I’d missed... I’ve done that before and made a fool of myself...

... and I prefer sunset. Though breathing is good.

Jon...

	17-01-2003 20:30									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

True enough.

	18-01-2003 00:52									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Absolutely, though work has prevented me from buying CoT. My next day off is next friday - and I will definately hit my nearest book shop then

Asmodean

	18-01-2003 01:48									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I remember Birth of the Federation. It lasted about a week on my computer before I got tired of it. It was one of the worst games I have bought in the last few years.

	18-01-2003 03:19									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I never played BOF, but I do remember it. I did eventually get Rebellion, one of its competitors, though. I quite liked that one, even if its menu system wasn't all it could have been.

	18-01-2003 03:43									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Bof has 3D simultaneous execution combat. Camera was rather weird and there wasn't tech exchange. Then again it was rather simple... too simple for me.
I'm not trekkie, but I returned to it. You know there isn't so much space games.

One of less nice thing was non variable attack pattern. AI was so much predicable and It likes to attack in great numbers ( some people like Clausewitch obviously).

Last edited by raghar on 18-01-2003 at 03:53

	18-01-2003 04:07									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I played it once or twice and gave it away. It was not bad, I just did not get hooked.

	18-01-2003 23:23									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I enjoyed BoF but found the galaxy display to be the worst part of it...it was laughably outdated and difficult to get around in and to get information out of. I'd love to see the game brought back out and improved. It had some nice features, like the minor races and their special attributes. It did seem rushed out but I don't recall crash bugs...just stuff that more polishing and beta testing could have cleaned up. And it ran pretty well on the system I had at the time, which was slightly above the mainstream but not a "hot setup."

	19-01-2003 04:34									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'd give BotF a 6 out of 10, just behind SE IV and a tiny bit ahead of Ascendancy (since the AI could actually play the game most of the time...)

My biggest problems with the game:
Couldn't design ships.
Cloak was WAY too powerful.
The whole tech system was BORING.
The production facility upgrade model was terrible.
The happiness model was too simplistic. (Though I liked the race-dependent nature of it.)
It was the first game I ever had that used the perma-spin on the CD rom as a copy protection scheme.


Still, it was good for 200-300 hours of gaming. (It was a slow year as I recall....

	19-01-2003 11:56									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yep, I've played BOTF. I still have it, too, but not on my comp. It was immersive, I'll give it that; and the game seemed like it could have been really fun. But MM became too much of a pain to bother. Also, I found colonies took way too long to develop; IMO, they didn't properly balance population growth.

	20-01-2003 10:33									#19
	Got spare money?

I loved BOTF. Me and a mate still play it sometimes. We had games that lasted weeks, starting at tech 1 level and reaching level 10. We had big battles numerous times invading each others planets to get an advantage. Were really looking forward to MOO3, week long games, bring it on. I hope they build at BOTF style game base of the MOO3 engine, that would be great. I hope some developers are listening. I look forward to playing 18 hours straight m/p games, did that once with BOTF.

	21-01-2003 02:19									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I still play Botf...it's my favorite space game. MOO2 takes it's place from time to time (more often these days) as the gameplay is better...still Botf has so many things i love (music and display for each race; 3d space battles; minor races; borders and neutral zones...)
I hope they'll make a sequel someday...may depend on the success of MOO3.

	21-01-2003 07:19									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I remember BotF was billed as the “Next Moo!”. Well, it wasn’t, but I still liked it and still play it from time to time. On the plus side, I liked that each race had distinct advantages and disadvantages that were tied into their strategy, and I liked the minor races. The combat system was a little Moo3-like where you give general orders to your ships, which took a while to get used to after micromanaging Moo.

I didn’t like the linear tech tree that had a couple of objectives, and the lack of rush building and scrapping penalties (scrap a transport for full value, then build a transport at a colony you established last turn in one year without penalty – I don’t think so). There were some bugs, but nothing that crashed the game or made it unplayable.

It could have been much better done, and suffered from a terrible galaxy map. Cloak was too powerful, especially on a Kvort class Klingon uber-cruiser, and the Cardassians were completely hopeless. As has been said, it didn’t live up to what it could have been! Maybe one day it will be Moo3-ed?

Hydro

	24-01-2003 18:53									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

When I first got MOO3 I have a P-133 and I thought the 5mins/turns was because my computer sucked, but when I got a P3 awhile later, the 5mins turns were still there
Other than that, I never had any bugs, I didnt even there were patches until recently when I decided to reinstall it.
I agree that the cloak was broken, 9 Romulan Warbird would smoke anything in the game, including the Borg.
I remember when once the Borg invaded the galaxy on the other side of the map and took over two small empires and once the Borg have a couple colonies and start producing cubes... damn the game got hard.
I think I must have lost like 200 destroyers as cannon fodder while my Soverigns took out the cubes.
Hmmm... I think im going to play again

	24-01-2003 22:52									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

200 Fed destroyers! When I have over 20 plus DDs, a handful of CLs, CCs and some support ships my maintenance starts bankrupting my economy! What level did you start, and what turn was it?

I mainly played Fed and I never beat a Borg Cube. Since I started Early (level 2) or Advanced games (level 3 industry to start) the Borg turned up around turn 100 killed everyone since there were no fleets that even had a chance except Romulan (maybe I’ll start a Rommie game, just to see). So, I turned random events off. Sigh.

Another problem – Roms have the second best negotiation rate in the game, which struck me as odd for a xenophobic race. I’d have thought the Ferengi would be better, but their only advantage is establishing trade and getting better sympathy without bribes. But, they have to generate a lot more sympathy to develop than Feds (who have it easy) or Roms (who are just slightly worse than Feds). Of course, the minor races dislike the Cardassians and Klingons. Who can blame them?

I never had a huge problem you describe with long turn resolutions.

Also, I have no sound with BotF in XP. Kind of a blessing, though...

Hydro