18-01-2003 01:22									#1
	Language and Culture Increase the size of your Attachments

Lately I have been plagued with a nagging question/dilema that I hope the minds here at Apolyton could help me figure out.

That is the connection, or lack there of, between language and culture. Sometime ago, in a thread far, far away this issue came to mind, and while I try to foget it, it just won't go.

I am currently under the impression that language and culture are not inter-related, saying that all because a language might die, does not necessarily mean that the cultural traits surrounding those who speak, or spoke, that language will die too.

Yet, I heard a radio add the other day by a local native american heritage society preaching to preserve the language. It made sense to me that language is apart of heritage, and that culture is a product of heritage, yet it to me it doesn't mean that language turns full circle to become what it produced...culture.

What do you think? Is language an inherent or even intrigal part of culture? How is heritage linked to culture, and can heritage continue, and a culture continue to exist even if the language changes?

	21-01-2003 14:01									#2
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i believe that culture can be independent of language

many different types of subcultures from the wild on party culture on E! to the computer game culture don't have to speak the same language to share common traits

to me culture is the common ideas, interests, lifestyles, and experiences that bind a group of people together, culture is always evolving, and while language is an important part of culture it is the ideas and values to me that are most important

heritage is the common ideas, interests, lifestyles, and experiences that bind one group of people to their ancestors, and i think language is very important in preserving a group's heritage

i think that heritage is a subcategory of culture and not the other way around

	21-01-2003 14:45									#3
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Language can show you many things about the culture. Extensive knowledge of Indonesian and Minangkabau suggest that the local culture puts submission to authority and conformity ahead of creativity. (I'm gonna get my ass kicked for that, aren't I?) Those languages also lack sarcasm and parody, and don't have the descriptive breadth of English.

In short, the characteristics of a culture are reflected in its language.

	21-01-2003 14:56									#4
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Culture makes language what it is.

Believe it or not, Magyar (Hungarian language) and Finnish descent from the same language group, from a long time ago.

A group of our common ancestors were wandering around the siberia, wondering what they should do and where they should go. When going over the Ural mountain range for the 5th or 7th time (they did that a lot) the finns thought:"We are tired of this crap. We go west and look for something better. We don't need all this oil now, we'll let our descendants deal with it in the far future". And so the finns, while going towards north, took a sudden turn left, and arrived to the area we know as Finland today.

Since the oil was not anymore within their grasp, they had no use for a word for that. And that is why finns have the very clumsy word 'ÖLJY' for oil, a poor quotation from the swedes.

Basically this story has only little relevance with the topic in question, but now you know something about Finland's history...

	21-01-2003 15:09									#5
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I LOVE your avatar aaglo. It reminds me of my childhood. It's so... innocent. I want my kids to watch that cartoon.

	21-01-2003 15:15									#6
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Azazel... unfortunately I cannot say the same about yours...

	21-01-2003 15:17									#7
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I've been expecting this

	21-01-2003 17:17									#8
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I'd say that culture and language are inseparable. Language acts as a common denominator for a group of people and helps spread values, traditions etc... within that group only. Any outsider can clearly be identified the moment they open their mouth.
Only today, because of our communication capabilities, do we see the cultural barriers slowly coming down (in the western world primarily) and that's in a large part due to our ability to understand other languages.
Poly's the best exemple of this.

	21-01-2003 20:40									#9
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quote: I'd say that culture and language are inseparable.

What he said.

	21-01-2003 22:38									#10
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The sum of a culture's experiences are expressed in language. One example is the inuit who have many more words for snow, than say English because it is very important for them to differentiate between different compositions.

When languages die, so do some unique concepts that might not carry over well into other languages.

One such example would be the greek word agape. Without greek, how could English speakers express this idea? Sure, one could use a clumsy sentence, but greek speakers will instantly understand the concept, through the single word.

I'm curious, what are some Finnish concepts that don't translate well to English?

	21-01-2003 22:53									#11
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Language is an important carrier of a culture... Cultural assiciations, axioms and so on are carried within the language... Observe the lots of words in Inuit for different kinds of snow, or the tons of military jargon in Hebrew.

Edit: LOL Inuit example used

	22-01-2003 01:42									#12
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Thanks for the replies.

To extended the conversation a tad;

The Mexican Culture is, IMO, very beautiful and proud. Their culture is an off shoot of the Spanish and older Mayan cultures, and they speak spanish (or some dialect there of).

Thus, some aspects of the Mexican culture is relatively new, where as some aspects are very, very old. Yet, language changed this culture when they began to speak spanish, bring in religion and capitalistic changes.

How important was it for the development of Mexican culture was it for the Mayans to begin speaking spanish? What if they continued speaking Mayan or instead began to speak Portugese?

On the same tone. In America cultures blend and mix becoming something completely different yet a sum of all or part of the whole. How important is it for the Mexicans who come to America to be able to continue speaking Spanish in order to preserve their heritege? How about in the schools? Do schools teach culture or do they teach nationalism? And, is nationalism apart of culture?

	22-01-2003 03:42									#13
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The myth about the Eskimo words for snow

Another link

Language and culture are connected only because people are likely to express only concepts that fit within their culture. If the USA and the Minangkabau switched languages overnight, you'd soon notice that the Minangkabau language is heavily individualistic and the English language is submissive.

	22-01-2003 03:44									#14
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IMO, the preservation of languages is solely to preserve art forms like storytelling, poetry, drama, and other language-based arts. The truth is, Journey to the West rendered into English is just weird, but so is Hamlet in Chinese. If no one speaks Chinese, then Journey to the West is as good as dead.

	22-01-2003 03:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Japher What do you think? Is language an inherent or even intrigal part of culture? How is heritage linked to culture, and can heritage continue, and a culture continue to exist even if the language changes?

Nope. It's not integral. I'll bet that 99% of British Apolytoners couldn't translate my signature (it's the West Saxon dialect of Old English) but that doesn't mean British culture has ceased to exist.


Hell, I could translate it into Brythonic and make it even more obscure.

	22-01-2003 03:52									#16
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I think one of the reasons language is not so important today is nearly the entire world shares a common culture and the languages which have developed and expanded in this culture can all express basically the same ideas. This is very different for extant tribal languages, such as those of the various native american groups, which are actual distinct cultures and their language is the only way to fully express that culture (or the remnants that are left)

	22-01-2003 04:32									#17
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Language carries many cultural terms that are never or can never be translated. Thus, when you lose a language, you lose all of the expressions, idiom, jargon, and ideas, not to mention literature, that were part of the culture.

	22-01-2003 05:27									#18
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quote: I'll bet that 99% of British Apolytoners couldn't translate my signature (it's the West Saxon dialect of Old English) but that doesn't mean British culture has ceased to exist.

Lazarus:

True, although it does mean that the culture that actually spoke and used Old English is gone. The British culture today is substantially different from 1200 years ago.

	22-01-2003 05:32									#19
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Separate cultures can find a degree of unity in a common language- Irish and British, Singaporean and American. Or as Oscar Wilde pointed out, a common language can separate the two.

But English is interesting for incorporating words for concepts from other languages where the exact concept does not exist in the form of a single word or phrase in English- Weltanschauung, Schadenfreude, chutzpah, hubris, joie de vivre, esprit de corps, eminence grise, and so on. I think this enriches the language and the culture, and is certainly preferable to the attempts to render Latin and Greek rhetorical terms into English (Anglo-Saxon derived) forms, as was attempted with terminology in the past.

I recall the episode of 'Frasier' where Niles and Frasier try to think of the French word for light-hearted- and agree that there isn't one.

Also- doesn't Japanese have a different set of terms/phrases for use by women?