18-01-2003 02:39									#1
	Easy quick question about destroyers Remove this text

Been awhile since played with default preferences.

Can destroyers see subs
-- in Civ3 ?
-- in PTW ?


I think the answers are No and Yes but looking for confirmation.

== PF

	18-01-2003 03:01									#2
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AFAIK the answers are no and no, I had to edit destroyers to "see invisible" in both PTW and civ3.

	18-01-2003 03:06									#3
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I know I edited "see invisible" in one or both, but could not remember for sure and I am playing an old civ3 game now under default rules.

Why not see invisible I can't figure out unless Firaxis wanted to leave something for AEGIS. Uboat captains had a different experience with destroyers.

== PF

	18-01-2003 07:56									#4
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Destroyers not being able to spot subs also gives added value to having your own subs, game-wise. It gives destroyers and battleships an achilles heel, which is good for the game.

	18-01-2003 08:29									#5
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Ideally, I would let Destroyers be the Sub-hunters and take out that ability for AEGIS cruisers, it would be more realistic.

Even more ideally would be that AEGIS cruisers could carry Cruise Missiles or had special defense against aircraft like in Civ2. Otherwise they become rather reduntant.

	18-01-2003 19:20									#6
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So the answer is No, No?

	20-01-2003 09:41									#7
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The answer is NO and NO

Raguil:

You can mod Ageis Cruisers to use Tactical Missles in the Editor. They should have an air defense also, but all modern units should. However do to the air defense attacks being either a hit and your dead or miss and no damage approach, allowing all units a defense against air would lead to a quick extermination of an airforce

	20-01-2003 23:19									#8
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When researched, Destroyers make up most of my navy. Costing only 120 shields to a Battleships 200 most of my coastal cities can produce them quickly and nearly twice as fast as building a Battleship. I can deploy a large number of them fairly fast. So, I still use my Destroyers for sinking subs. I just attack them when they are spotted. Spotting them is not too hard if I have a few Destroyers to scout for them.

	21-01-2003 01:20									#9
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quote: ... Spotting them is not too hard if I have a few Destroyers to scout for them.

You mean "Subs" to scout for them?

	21-01-2003 18:37									#10
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Just cover the ocean with destroyers and you will 'scout' for subs in a very efficent manner.

	21-01-2003 18:43									#11
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I don't think it is accurate to say all modern units deserve air defence, as all modern units today don't have any or not to any great extent. I know this because my roomate is an Air Defense Artillery officer in the army, and he says that all they are really good for is anti helicoptor or using there heavy ADA guns on ground emplacments. The Aegis cruiser, however (and I know this because I am in the Navy), was built and missioned as an Air defender for battlegroups, that is their primary job. I woyuld say there should be two air defence units in civ3, the Aegis Cruiser and a mobile Sam.

	21-01-2003 19:42									#12
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Just cover the ocean with destroyers and you will 'scout' for subs in a very efficent manner.

Thats exactly what I do. If its just a narrow passway I only need a few destroyers to do it. I don't always stack my destroyers on top of my transports, I usually have them scout ahead to see what is out there. That way I know the area is cleared to pass through with my loaded transports. In the end its like follow the leader. Sometimes though a sub can and will sneak pass my destroyer escorts. It all depends on how many I have for cover. If its a large ocean I need 3 destroyers, one in front the other two on the sides and my transports in the middle. Forming an effective convoy fleet.

	22-01-2003 01:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I don't think it is accurate to say all modern units deserve air defence, as all modern units today don't have any or not to any great extent. I know this because my roomate is an Air Defense Artillery officer in the army, and he says that all they are really good for is anti helicoptor or using there heavy ADA guns on ground emplacments. The Aegis cruiser, however (and I know this because I am in the Navy), was built and missioned as an Air defender for battlegroups, that is their primary job. I woyuld say there should be two air defence units in civ3, the Aegis Cruiser and a mobile Sam.

If you shoot alot of ADA guns/missiles at enemy air, you might well scare them off or at least spoil their aim. Works better on forces not well trained/motivated. That has always been the primary role of air defense. Actually knocking them down is icing on the cake.

For purposes of Civ, air defense success destroys the air unit, it does not just enhance chances for a bombardment miss. For this reason I chose to just increase the defense strength of Aegis to 12.

	22-01-2003 14:34									#14
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If you knock them down they will not return for a second try will they Scaring them off or making them miss is of course a good #2

I believe that AA-guns, even before guided missiles were invented, mostly were used to boost morale. I mean, just how many rounds did you have to fire to down a singe plane?

	22-01-2003 20:27									#15
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A lot. During WWI when the Germans' Zeppelins and Gotha bombers (4-engine biplanes!) scared London by dropping a few badly aimed bombs, the British reacted by deploying a huge number of AA guns and blazing away night after night. After the war, it was determined that London suffered more damage from falling flak from their own guns than it did from German bombs.

	22-01-2003 21:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bongo I believe that AA-guns, even before guided missiles were invented, mostly were used to boost morale. I mean, just how many rounds did you have to fire to down a singe plane?

I remember reading somewhere that in the 1940 air attacks on London by the Luftwaffe it took over 700 rounds from a heavy AA gun to account for one bomber and that was aimed fire in daylight. If the guns had to fire a blind barrage at night the figure went up to over 8000 rounds per bomber shot down!

No wonder munitions was a profitable business.

	23-01-2003 11:06									#17
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Bongo:

a .30 cal mg is effective enough to down even a very advanced plane if it is engaged in low level attacks. 20mm and 40mm cannon can reach up to 10,000 ft or so, making them a threat to a plane in a low-medium level flight envelope. 90mm or above can reach in excess of 45,000 ft. All but the 90mm weapons are used in most infantry divisions around the world, so even infantry units should have some defense against aircraft.

In Vietnam the US suffered a majority of its aircraft losses due to ground fire, and a considerable portion of that was under 20mm. Aircraft were even downed in Vietnam by AK47's....

In the Gulf War Tornados flown by the British and Saudis were assigned to attack airfields in Iraq. Due to the aerodynamics of their ordanance they prefered to deliver their bombs at low level. The Tornados suffered high loss rates in the opening days of the air attack to ground fire, unitl they changed their tactics and dropped at higher altitudes.

Of course I am not suggesting that an Infantry division should have the same air defense as an Aegis cruiser, but they should have an ability to damage air units.

	23-01-2003 12:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber ... but they should have an ability to damage air units.

Therein lies the problem. We cannot DAMAGE air units in the game.

I would have enjoyed 2-3 hitpoint air units. ADA can take 1 HP off, fighters could take 1 or more off, and everyone heals at 1 HP/ turn. Too involved for the perceived mass market, I suppose.

	23-01-2003 19:58									#19
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Mad Bomber: I know that infantry using guns can harm planes, my point(if any) is that their effect will be very low compared to specialist AA-units so in civ their effect should be low or none. Maybe allowing them to take one HP would be a good solution but then you would have to give HP to air-units.

I actually served one year as a soldier in a SAM-battery so I'm familiar with those numbers.

	23-01-2003 20:07									#20
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So the only choice is either air force of cruise missiles

	24-01-2003 14:22									#21
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Cruise missiles are not made for anti-aircraft use. They are mostly for stationary or slow-moving targets.

In civ3 you have fighters, mobile-SAMs and AEGIS-cruisers. Thats one AA-unit for each domain(land, sea and air). Something for everyone

	24-01-2003 15:29									#22
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I don's have mobile sams... Fighters can be damaged, why not bombers?

	24-01-2003 17:08									#23
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Bongo:

I think you missed the point of my argument, The basic system of anti-air is too simple, the only defense is with fighters or Sams and if a Sam hits you you are dead regardless of HP of aircraft. I think that AA in Civ 3 should be resolved with a bombardment like system with separate values for AA and AA ROF. So for example a infantry unit would have a AA value of 2 with a AA ROF of 1. Where as a Aegis Cruiser would have an AA value of 16 with an AA ROF of 3. This would make air attacks far more realistic with minimal changes to game mechanics. With an air attack against an Infantry unit the chance would be low of causing 1 Hp damage, but with an air attack against an aegis cruiser you would have 3 AA attacks with a good possibility of doing damage.

Also Aircraft do have HP, its just not noticable due to the simplistic air combat now used in CIV3.

Last edited by Mad Bomber on 26-01-2003 at 10:39

	25-01-2003 15:57									#24
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I think that if the patroling aircraft is more technologically advance than the bombarding aircraft then there should be an improved chance of interception. Secondly, we should be able to send fighters to take down enemy's patrolling aircrafts as well.

One more thing, I always have a feeling that the "zone of control" flag for Aeigis cruiser is to prevent enemy air unit from passing through....I think I am wrong...

	25-01-2003 23:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by redhat ... One more thing, I always have a feeling that the "zone of control" flag for Aeigis cruiser is to prevent enemy air unit from passing through....I think I am wrong...

Without a doubt. How can ZOC affect an air unit that never passes through tiles?

Naval (or even ground) units, on the other hand ...

	26-01-2003 17:19									#26
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Mad Bomber, I have never built SAMs or AEGIS in any of my games(haven't gotten that far in the tech tree).But I see your point, the air combat model is a bit simplistic.