18-01-2003 06:31									#1
	Forests obsolete with railroads? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my calculations it is always beneficial to chop down forests and mine or irrigate the base terrain as soon as you get railroads. A forest will always be 1 food, 2 shields and railroads do nothing for it. But if you chop down the forest then mine and railroad the base terrain, you will get 1 food, 3 shields for plains, and 2 food, 2 (or 3) shields for grasslands. You could also irrigate instead of mine and trade 2 food for 2 shields.

Consequently, you end up with a very ugly map with those mines covering everything.

	18-01-2003 07:48									#2
	Tired of ads?

You are quite correct, with the following qualifications:
1. You don't WANT more food. Specially applicable if you have already chopped the forest and found that it is not a shielded grassland.

2. You want the forest there for its additional defensive benefits.

3. (Dirty Trick Department): It is NEUTRAL territory, and you want to impede the growth of another civ's town that is going to appear.
Or even worse, it's by a city of YOURS that you are about to lose!

	18-01-2003 19:22									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I leave forests on the ground as.. I like the way the map looks

	18-01-2003 21:36									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit I leave forests on the ground as.. I like the way the map looks

This is exactly what I do. In fact, I'll add forests sometimes for that reason. There is usually enough different types of terrain around my cities to not make it necessary to fully utilize every piece of terrain.

	18-01-2003 22:02									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually, forests on turndra with railroad give as much as mineing. It does have a slight defense bonus, and it looks a lot nicer.

	18-01-2003 23:04									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I cut down everything for the 10-shield bonuses, then reforest selectively, especially on tundra, as Ben says.

	18-01-2003 23:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ben Williams Actually, forests on turndra with railroad give as much as mineing. It does have a slight defense bonus, and it looks a lot nicer.

Forests w/ tunra is the one example where it is beneficial to have them as opposed to worked tiles. I do like to keep some greenspace around, and usually plant some forests in the gaps between the city borders' or if my population is too high in a particular city (above 25)

	19-01-2003 00:44									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Forests w/ tunra is the one example where it is beneficial to have them as opposed to worked tiles. I do like to keep some greenspace around, and usually plant some forests in the gaps between the city borders' or if my population is too high in a particular city (above 25)

Wouldn't it be easier to turn them into specialists?

	19-01-2003 04:23									#9
	Got spare money?

I think what I will do is make it so forests can be mined for 1 shield. Then they will go from useless to very valuable, and railroads will make them more valuable. I am also toying with the idea of removing the ability to mine grasslands and plains, but I'm afraid this would slow down the already too slow ancient era. BTW, I always play my own mod.

	19-01-2003 10:21									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by alva Wouldn't it be easier to turn them into specialists?

Certainly it would be easier, it just wouldn't suit my purpose, which is to reduce the citizens of my metros (or at least limit them) to control pollution and Global Warming. I usually start this between the time Hospitals appear and the time I start building Mass Transits.

	19-01-2003 17:51									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

i just build loads of workers. they can clean up the pollution, and i'm not too bothered about global warming anyway. i like those huge cities.
normally my cities produce a worker in 1 turn, so that's one way of getting the pop down and cleaning up ever more pollution. otherwise i just burn other peoples cities down and enslave the population.

	20-01-2003 11:22									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

emma:

GW is not usually a major problem, unless you start throwing nukes around...It's not something that I like doing, but planting greenspace and limiting the size of metros is a great way of trying to cope with a "limited" nuklear war, and the sooner you start planning for it the better. Of course if you have a full blown Nuke War, planting greenspace and limiting population will not be effective.

	20-01-2003 22:30									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

ahhh... that's why. i don't usually let it come to a nuclear war. (i'm only playing at monarch level right now, and as i'm comfortably winning i think i will play a harder game next).
i try to get rid of annoying civs really early and then deal with others when they attack me in the middle ages (i'm rubbish at middle ages gameplay and never get any middle age wonders).
i struggle a bit then, but soon catch up and win space race. have any of you won by domination on a huge map with nearly all civs? i just can't seem to do it. there are always civs that have all the luck and have weak neighbours and so have a huge empire. i would be destroying meself if i attacked. and then a third civ would take over. but i make sure i have a huge tec lead and the stupid ai has just learned to build nukes when i have nearly completed my space ship.

	21-01-2003 03:34									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Emma:

I play Regent, but on Huge maps, 16 CIV's and only with Conquest as a victory Condition. I will always be fighting a modern war with Nuclear powers, so preparation is a must, even though I always hope that they won't be used.

	21-01-2003 05:22									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What would you suggest? Give 1 point in "mining" for forests in the editor or will that unbalance the game?

BTW, I accidentally set the move rate for roads to 1 while altering some of the values in the editor and that SERIOUSLY unbalanced the game. Although I was handicapped by it, the AI was even worse.

	21-01-2003 13:22									#16
	Support Apolyton

I tried yesterday with adding mining to forrests on a pre-made map. It was nice to have it there. For some reason, a forrest square with a fur resource on it, produced an additional shield giving a total of 4 (2 for the forrest it self + 1 for the mine + 1 for ??). Also, the AI have started to love the forrest. It was actually planting it instead of choping it down! However, I think this was only for a period before electricity or before the AI changed to a more productive government. I haven't finished playing the map yet, so I'll see how it ends up

	21-01-2003 18:48									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Emma i try to get rid of annoying civs really early and then deal with others when they attack me in the middle ages (i'm rubbish at middle ages gameplay and never get any middle age wonders). i struggle a bit then, but soon catch up and win space race. have any of you won by domination on a huge map with nearly all civs? i just can't seem to do it. there are always civs that have all the luck and have weak neighbours and so have a huge empire...

I've actually had success by selling or even gifting techs to the weaker Civs (on other continents, mind you - I don't want to bolster any Civs on my continent) so that they can muster some sort of defense against the larger aggressor Civ. I even toss them a couple resources if they need them. Of course, care must be taken to maintain a balance so that when I get around to invading the other continents I can still crush any and all opposition. It's really a matter of playing the stongest Civs against each other, and propping up the weaker ones as needed.

All of which has nothing to do with railroads in forest, which provide extra trade, by the way, if nothing else. I always keep strategically placed forest close to my borders, but the rest usually comes down.

	22-01-2003 04:59									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess I take the more utilitarian approach. With the beginning of the Industrial age and rapid industrialization it makes sense that forests go the way of the Dodo; it's what actually happened in history. But, then again, I only chop down the forests in the 21-tile city space. I leave the other tiles alone; National Parks and the like.

Last edited by trevor on 22-01-2003 at 08:41

	22-01-2003 11:27									#19
	Got spare money?

I was doing some experimenting because I kinda hate the "deforestation" too. Here are some preliminary results:

The AI will still chop down forests even when eliminating the mining bonus to plains and grasslands.

When I gave forests a 3 shield production, the AI began planting forests on grasslands!

NOTE: I have yet to experiment on this mod for a more protracted period, say 10 turns. The AI began chopping some forests in the first case but perhaps will leave some others resulting in the "checkerboard" irrig/mine pattern now being irrig/forest. I'll post more info in a while.

	22-01-2003 13:43									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by raguil_79 I was doing some experimenting because I kinda hate the "deforestation" too. Here are some preliminary results: The AI will still chop down forests even when eliminating the mining bonus to plains and grasslands. When I gave forests a 3 shield production, the AI began planting forests on grasslands! NOTE: I have yet to experiment on this mod for a more protracted period, say 10 turns. The AI began chopping some forests in the first case but perhaps will leave some others resulting in the "checkerboard" irrig/mine pattern now being irrig/forest. I'll post more info in a while.

Looks like we are thinking along the same lines here... Haven't tried it yet, but maybe it helps to increase the cost of planting a forrest?

	22-01-2003 16:06									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Certainly it would be easier, it just wouldn't suit my purpose, which is to reduce the citizens of my metros (or at least limit them) to control pollution and Global Warming. I usually start this between the time Hospitals appear and the time I start building Mass Transits.

Agree totally. Another thing worth pointing out is that it's easier to get a WLTK-day with a lower population.

	24-01-2003 03:43									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

hi ,

forest > no railroad , so units move slover true them , more intresting

bonus grassland > irrigation

grassland > forest

tundra > forest

plains > forest

nah , they dont get "obsolete" , .....

have a nice day