18-01-2003 10:49									#31
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Frogger: You're way OT here. What should be done now? Not two months ago.

	18-01-2003 10:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, it certainly didn't stop it.

Neither has anything the US has done so far, now has it?

The fact is that NK was proceeding at a snail's pace relative to their full potential. The problem was still there, but it was fairly well contained. Once the evidence came to light, though, the initial reaction was a mishandling. Everything since then has seen the US moving towards what should have been done in the first place.

	18-01-2003 10:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger That SK's position over the last few years caused NK to continue its nuclear program.

I think that you are reading too much into it, Frogger. I never meant to imply anything of the sort. I have the 94 agreement between the US and NK to blame for that.

The basis for the question is the lack of any real benefit, I have seen, that has offset the costs associated with it. I was wondering what the rationale behind continuing the policy was.

	18-01-2003 10:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Frogger: You're way OT here. What should be done now? Not two months ago.

Now the sit's all frogged up...

If I were the US I'd do some sabre-rattling but at the same time enter into formal negotiations with the NKs.

	18-01-2003 10:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I think that you are reading too much into it, Frogger. I never meant to imply anything of the sort. I have the 94 agreement between the US and NK to blame for that. The basis for the question is the lack of any real benefit, I have seen, that has offset the costs associated with it. I was wondering what the rationale behind continuing the policy was.

The NKs were well-behaved, as far as NK goes for that entire period. They were lying, but at the same time were not doing enough to be a real regional security threat. That was the result of SK's soft stance and the US-NK agreement (which was badly enforced, to be sure, but which has the merit of stopping NK from completely blowing its stack).

	18-01-2003 11:53									#36
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Honestly, it is time for a regime change in NK. The UN should issue an ultimatum and then authorize force if the ultimatum fails. The UN should call on all nations, but particularly the US, China, Russia and SK, to impose a regime change by force of arms on this roque nation.

Whatever we do, it should be through the UN.

	18-01-2003 13:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Serb He is not mad. It's simple trade- "hey George, will stop our nuclear programm (we don't have $$$ for it anyway), if you'll start to send us fuel again. And remember Korea isn't desert and our army isn't Saddam forces, so save your tricks for him, we are not afraid"

Your ignorance is *profound,* Serb.

Surely you've been in touch enough with the news over the last four months or so to realize that North Korea restarted its pursuit of nuclear weapons while it *was* being supplied with fuel oil and food from the United States, South Korea, Japan and probably a few other nations. In fact, reports in the media indicate 1998 as the year when NK resumed research/acquisition/building that was supposedly put on ice by that 1994 framework agreement with the United States and its allies.

Your willful ignorance of the world — especially in matters related to the United States — puts you at the same level as the frothing-at-the-mouth U.S. "patriots" that pop up from time to time.

IOW, you're predictable. And *useless.*

I suggest you don't post again unless you can contribute more than anti-U.S.A. one-liners to discussions such as this, Serb.

Gatekeeper

	18-01-2003 13:37									#38
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The time will show.
Do you want a bet?
If US will launch any military operation against NK in near future, I'll eat my hat. Are you ready to do the same if there will be no military operation in 1-2 years (and if NK will not strike first of course)?

	18-01-2003 13:45									#39
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Don't be silly serb. If you ate your hat, you'd choke on the fur

	18-01-2003 14:01									#40
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One more thing.

quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Surely you've been in touch enough with the news over the last four months or so to realize that North Korea restarted its pursuit of nuclear weapons while it *was* being supplied with fuel oil and food from the United States, South Korea, Japan and probably a few other nations. In fact, reports in the media indicate 1998 as the year when NK resumed research/acquisition/building that was supposedly put on ice by that 1994 framework agreement with the United States and its allies.

First of all, it was the fascinating speach- typical American arrogant crap
Reports in the media
Ok, please enlighten me I would like to see how your media portray this.
Link?

Anyhow, even if it's true, I don't remember that in 1998 a NK leaders shouts that NK break international treaties and continues its nuclear programm. Never ask yourself why THEY did it NOW? An "evil bastards" could continue their nuclear programm covertly as they did since 1998 (in accordance with "your media") What is the reason for current political de-march? I think it's trade or blackmail, call it as you wish. If you have another explanation, please let me know.


Oh btw,
next time I'll add a couple of insults, Gatekeeper.

	18-01-2003 14:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Don't be silly serb. If you ate your hat, you'd choke on the fur

Probably, but somehow, I'm absolutely sure that there will be no military action vs. NK.

And...it wasn't funny David

	18-01-2003 14:12									#42
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It's 3 am and I have insomnia. Cut me some slack

	18-01-2003 14:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Serb An "evil bastards" could continue their nuclear programm covertly as they did since 1998 (in accordance with "your media") What is the reason for current political de-march?

We confronted them with evidence and they decided to sieze the opportunity to act insane.

	18-01-2003 14:42									#44
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They're not acting insane; they're going to come out of this better than they went in. Writing's on the wall. USA got played, big time.

*Insert photo of NK *****-slapping US around*

	18-01-2003 15:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Serb First of all, it was the fascinating speach- typical American arrogant crap

Shove it where the sun doesn't shine, boy. I speak to the level of the audience — in this case, YOU. Which means I don't bother to go into much detail or depth because I shall likely get a one or two-line response.

I dare you to call me a one-dimensional "rah-rah" type American again, you poor sod. You'd think that, having been around 'Poly since Nov. 2001, you'd have learned a thing or two about some of the posters here. Apparently not.

quote: Reports in the media Ok, please enlighten me I would like to see how your media portray this. Link?

Well, gee, Serb, surely you realize that the viewpoints expressed in American media are quite diverse and never truly "with one voice." Surely our global dominance of planetary culture would give you an indication of this? Surely a casual scanning of CNN and FOX News would give you two differing views of what various TV media types are spouting in regards to this situation. Surely a look at the various op-ed pieces in U.S. newspapers and opinions from those in other forms of U.S. journalism — i.e., televison, Internet — would give you a clear picture that there are differing views espoused w/i American media.

IOW, Serb, the media isn't in lockstep here when it comes to opining on foreign relations decisions made by Bush, et al. In fact, the press has a somewhat adversarial relationship with TPTB in the adminstration. But of course, *none* of that is evident to enlightened foreign folks like yourself, huh? All Americans — and their institutions — are monolithic and in lockstep with Der Fuhrer Bush, huh?

If you need links to see the obvious, then you are beyond hope. (Oh, BTW, my newspaper will be covering the anti-war demonstrations today [Saturday] that are planned in parts of the nation, that nation being the United States of America. Y'know, that evil nation where everyone is allegedly a Bush clone?)

quote: Anyhow, even if it's true, I don't remember that in 1998 a NK leaders shouts that NK break international treaties and continues its nuclear programm.

Uhm ... maybe because it was a *covert* program? IOW, they didn't want it broadcast to the world what they were doing?

quote: Never ask yourself why THEY did it NOW? An "evil bastards" could continue their nuclear programm covertly as they did since 1998 (in accordance with "your media")

Did what now? As in reveal the existence of their program? Hey, NK *didn't* reveal it. U.S. diplomats brought up before them in October and NK caught them off guard by actually admitting to it and saying they would continue with the program, regardless of what they signed in 1994. Things have continued from there.

quote: What is the reason for current political de-march? I think it's trade or blackmail, call it as you wish. If you have another explanation, please let me know.

Political de-march? What's that? If it has anything to do with Bush's inclusion of NK in the "Axis of Evil," well, I, too, was wondering about that when he first came out with it. But with the October 2002 revelation of NK's nuke program, I have to wonder if he knew something the general public didn't at the time of the "Axis of Evil" speech; namely, that Bush had solid intelligence that NK indeed was pursuing weapons research/building in violation of the 1994 agreement.

I'm still wondering why Iran was included in the "Axis," so to speak. No longer so much so with NK.

As for NK's reasoning, I suspect it's blackmail. But then again they could truly be aiming to acquire a significant nuclear arsenal, since what they allegedly want in return *now* for stopping their nuke program is apparently the same damn thing they were getting under the 1994 Framework Agreement — namely, fuel oil shipments, food aid (which, BTW, apparently will continue regardless of the political situation) and the continued construction of those light-water nuclear reactors. Why go to all this trouble just to get what you had before?

quote: Oh btw, next time I'll add a couple of insults, Gatekeeper.

**shrug** Promise? Oh, goody! I bet I can spit farther than you can, too.

Gatekeeper

	18-01-2003 17:03									#46
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South Korea should get China to put pressure on the North to give up the ghost. I'm sure they can come up with a deal, probably involving the removal of American forces from the peninsula.

	18-01-2003 17:03									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Shove it where the sun doesn't shine, boy.

Great debating skills man.
Is it what your sergant says when you ask- "where I should put my rifle, sir"?

quote: I speak to the level of the audience — in this case, YOU.

We can't speak on the same level by definition. If you want to speak on my level speak Russian. It's your luck and advantage that I don't know your monkey language good enough.

quote: I dare you to call me a one-dimensional "rah-rah" type American again, you poor sod. You'd think that, having been around 'Poly since Nov. 2001, you'd have learned a thing or two about some of the posters here. Apparently not.

Of course not. There are several thousands posters on Poly. It simply impossible to know everyone here.
So, who the f*ck might you be, sir?
IIRC, it's our first clash. So, don't be shy, show me your best strike.

quote: Well, gee, Serb, surely you realize that the viewpoints expressed in American media are quite diverse and never truly "with one voice." Surely our global dominance of planetary culture would give you an indication of this? Surely a casual scanning of CNN and FOX News would give you two differing views of what various TV media types are spouting in regards to this situation. Surely a look at the various op-ed pieces in U.S. newspapers and opinions from those in other forms of U.S. journalism — i.e., televison, Internet — would give you a clear picture that there are differing views espoused w/i American media. IOW, Serb, the media isn't in lockstep here when it comes to opining on foreign relations decisions made by Bush, et al. In fact, the press has a somewhat adversarial relationship with TPTB in the adminstration. But of course, *none* of that is evident to enlightened foreign folks like yourself, huh?

Blah...blah...blah...
I've asked about EXACT link, to see on which source you've based your opinion and what I have in resonse- childish whine about the "greatest press in the world". Thanks for the lecture. It was a bit sh*tty and has no connection to my question of course, but I guess you spent some time creating such brain farts as "our global dominance of planetary culture ".

quote: All Americans — and their institutions — are monolithic and in lockstep with Der Fuhrer Bush, huh?

What a bullsh*t. Are you nuts?

quote: If you need links to see the obvious, then you are beyond hope.

In other words- "I don't have links, scan the CNN and FOX and find them by yourself".

quote: (Oh, BTW, my newspaper will be covering the anti-war demonstrations today [Saturday] that are planned in parts of the nation, that nation being the United States of America. Y'know, that evil nation where everyone is allegedly a Bush clone?)

And? You think I don't know that not everyone in USA supporting this war? That I don't know about those demostrations? I don't get it, what are you trying to prove?

quote: Uhm ... maybe because it was a *covert* program? IOW, they didn't want it broadcast to the world what they were doing?

Of course. Then explain to me what prevented them from acting like Saddam? Why they just didn't said- "we have nothing, it's just American fairytales. WHY they admited this? WHAT FOR if not for blackmail?

quote: Did what now? As in reveal the existence of their program? Hey, NK *didn't* reveal it. U.S. diplomats brought up before them in October and NK caught them off guard by actually admitting to it and saying they would continue with the program, regardless of what they signed in 1994. Things have continued from there.

Again, why they admited this? Why they just can't said- f*ck off, we have nothing and you have no right to check us without UN resolution (and we know that you'll never get it), you have no evidences and even if you have something, we could always claim that it's just propaganda and excuse for American agression against independent country. And you know what, many people will buy it."
Instead of this they admited that they have this programm and broke an international threaty, result- huge negative impact on already sh*tty NK image.
What was the reason for such behavior?

quote: Political de-march? What's that?

There is no such word in English? Strange.
Well, it's when one man says to another- "hey, you should stop doing this and stop doing that" and the second guy replies- " f*ck yourself mister, I'll continue to do what I want."

quote: If it has anything to do with Bush's inclusion of NK in the "Axis of Evil,"...

It has nothing common with that.

quote: As for NK's reasoning, I suspect it's blackmail.

Then what the f*ck are you talking about?
I said- "I think it's blackmail". You launched sh*tload of crap in your insulting reply and now you are talking about the same as I did?

quote: But then again they could truly be aiming to acquire a significant nuclear arsenal, since what they allegedly want in return *now* for stopping their nuke program is apparently the same damn thing they were getting under the 1994 Framework Agreement — namely, fuel oil shipments, food aid (which, BTW, apparently will continue regardless of the political situation)

Really?
Gentle uncle Sam- always keeps his word. Are you sure it will continue regardless of political situation? Why it's stoped?

quote: and the continued construction of those light-water nuclear reactors. Why go to all this trouble just to get what you had before?

I guess they thought that there will be no shipments anymore and more probably they want more.

quote: **shrug** Promise? Oh, goody! I bet I can spit farther than you can, too.

Good for you, buy yourself a candy, you victim of abortation.

	18-01-2003 18:24									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker US Troops: My view on the US troops is to keep them there, but to pull them back out of the spotlight. They should not be right in the middle of downtown Seoul, no matter how 'fun' it is. Move them to bases in the mountains in the North east of SK. No Korean likes to see the sprawling mass of foreign territory in the middle of the capital. Scale it back, and instruct the troops on the meaning of 'low profile'.

1. This option doesn't seem to fit with the others. It is not designed to fix the problem of the North but to placate the South. Plus if they don't want us in Seul, maybe we shouldn't be there overall. My Dad fought there. But it looks like that memory is kinda dim. The SKs want to be big boys...they think that the problem is between the North and US. Well fine. Let them deal with it than.

2. You left out a few other options:
A. Continue (or restart) paying ransom. Perhaps even if you don't get anything tangible.
B. "If talking doesn't work...talk some more." I believe that is a quote of one of the SK leaders.

	18-01-2003 18:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Given the results the [Bush] doctrine has given both the Korean Peninsula and the world, is it time for the US to reassess its utility?

Explain. What is the Bush Doctrine? How did it cause the NK to cheat on their agreement (which had no effective inspection requirement anyway) for most of the 90's?

	18-01-2003 18:34									#50
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I think a lot of people who are criticizing Bush for not punishing NK are just trying to help Kim in his actions which are timed now to try to take advantage of our coming war with Saddam. (And they don't really want Bush to punish Kim...they just want a distraction from Iraq.)

These problems will be a lot easier if handled one at a time.

	18-01-2003 19:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Why go to all this trouble just to get what you had before?

One thing they don't have right now, or did then, is a formal non-aggression treaty with the US. That was one of their very first demands.

	18-01-2003 20:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger They're not acting insane; they're going to come out of this better than they went in.

They've already rejected the US caving in to them, KH.

	18-01-2003 23:55									#53
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The US was never going to cave into NK. It's all just a delaying tactic until we can more fully devote our attention to the situation. We haven't even played any of our escalation cards.

	19-01-2003 00:34									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DanS We haven't even played any of our escalation cards.

We have already ruled out cutting off food aid to the country, a mistake IMO. Short of actually sending in more troops into SK (an option I don't think that they would agree to given the political cliamate), what cards do we have left to play?

	19-01-2003 00:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The US was never going to cave into NK. It's all just a delaying tactic until we can more fully devote our attention to the situation. We haven't even played any of our escalation cards.

We're busy with a ship chain towards the Persian Gulf. We'll worry about the purple civ later.

	19-01-2003 00:56									#56
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"Short of actually sending in more troops into SK (an option I don't think that they would agree to given the political cliamate), what cards do we have left to play?"

We haven't ruled anything out. The only card we've played is the suspension of heavy fuel oil shipments ($400 million per annum). We also supply some food aid, which we can stop (155,000 metric tons in '02, or about $62 million @ $400 per metric ton).

As for escalation, we can refer the matter to the SC for sanctions, embargoes, and lawful missile interdiction (at least $500 million per annum). We can seize or pressure others to seize Kim Jong Il's foreign assets ($4 billion). We can move troops and carriers into the region. We can ratfvck them by "turning on" the country with SK media.

That's enough to start.

Last edited by DanS on 19-01-2003 at 01:18

	19-01-2003 01:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Is it what your sergant says when you ask- "where I should put my rifle, sir"?

I wouldn't know, Serb, as I haven't served in my country's military as of yet. Perhaps you could receive enlightenment by posting that same question to, say, one of the U.S. military veterans who frequent the forum.

quote: We can't speak on the same level by definition. If you want to speak on my level speak Russian. It's your luck and advantage that I don't know your monkey language good enough.

The Cyrillic alphabet was never my strong point.

quote: Of course not. There are several thousands posters on Poly. It simply impossible to know everyone here. So, who the f*ck might you be, sir? IIRC, it's our first clash. So, don't be shy, show me your best strike.

I'm just another American who's seen my nation stereotyped one time too many and decided to point out that, yes, America is truly a land of diverse opinion.

quote: Blah...blah...blah... I've asked about EXACT link, to see on which source you've based your opinion and what I have in resonse- childish whine about the "greatest press in the world". Thanks for the lecture. It was a bit sh*tty and has no connection to my question of course, but I guess you spent some time creating such brain farts as "our global dominance of planetary culture ".

You didn't read it very well, did you?

quote: What a bullsh*t. Are you nuts?

Are you an enlightened, well-educated and open-minded person? No.

quote: In other words- "I don't have links, scan the CNN and FOX and find them by yourself".

Ah, yes, you must be one of those people who would need a damn *link* to prove it if I told you the world was round, huh? Sorry, but there are some things in life that do not need Web links to prove they're true, and the fact that the U.S. media and Americans themselves are divided and opinionated over what Bush, et al., are doing is one of them.

quote: And? You think I don't know that not everyone in USA supporting this war? That I don't know about those demostrations? I don't get it, what are you trying to prove?

Well, Hell's bells, Serb. The impression I received from your initial post was one of deliberate ignorance and intentional provocation. Wasn't that why DanS told you to answer the question rather than beating around the bush on a peripheral subject?

quote: Of course. Then explain to me what prevented them from acting like Saddam? Why they just didn't said- "we have nothing, it's just American fairytales. WHY they admited this? WHAT FOR if not for blackmail?

So we appear to perhaps be agreeing on something. As for the "why" of matters, I think it was simply timing: Bush, et al., are pre-occupied with Iraq, why not throw a wrench into things and see what happens? Which is exactly what NK has done. Some may subscribe to the notion that NK's leader is insane, but I don't think so. Not after what I've read about him. Spoiled, perhaps, but not insane. Not completely.

quote: Again, why they admited this? Why they just can't said- f*ck off, we have nothing and you have no right to check us without UN resolution (and we know that you'll never get it), you have no evidences and even if you have something, we could always claim that it's just propaganda and excuse for American agression against independent country. And you know what, many people will buy it." Instead of this they admited that they have this programm and broke an international threaty, result- huge negative impact on already sh*tty NK image. What was the reason for such behavior?

We've already gone into this above.

quote: There is no such word in English? Strange. Well, it's when one man says to another- "hey, you should stop doing this and stop doing that" and the second guy replies- " f*ck yourself mister, I'll continue to do what I want."

Hey, cool, learned something new today then. I suspect you're also learning that there are no Russian equivalents for some things said in English as well, hmm?

quote: Then what the f*ck are you talking about? I said- "I think it's blackmail". You launched sh*tload of crap in your insulting reply and now you are talking about the same as I did?

I was responding to your first post in this thread. Wasn't that clear from the quoted material? I did see your second post to this thread only after I submitted my post, and I see you only added your second post after being bugged to answer the question at hand (which you didn't do in your initial post, which is what I was replying to).

quote: Really? Gentle uncle Sam- always keeps his word. Are you sure it will continue regardless of political situation? Why it's stoped?

Gentle Uncle Josef- always keeps his word.

Anyway, I never said that Uncle Sam was perfect (and never have in my entire time at 'Poly). Furthermore, SK's new president said today that Bush, et al., had considered a military strike — ala former President Clinton — on Yongbon, but tossed that idea out the window and chose the current course.

So, to answer your question, I'm quite certain that current course will lead to a resolution w/o any sort of U.S.-initiated military action because, well, it's already been thought of and ruled out.

quote: I guess they thought that there will be no shipments anymore and more probably they want more.

Prior to the events of October, I saw no indication that the United States and her allies were going to cut off fuel oil and food aid to NK. Nor did I see any halt in construction of the lightwater reactors, although they are (admittedly) behind schedule. But even in the United States itself, it can take 10 years or more before a nuke power plant is up and running ... so I didn't take the delays in NK's lightwater reactors as anything other than some sort of red tape snafu.

quote: Good for you, buy yourself a candy, you victim of abortation.

Y'know what, Serb? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and *not* assume you believe I should've been ABORTED during my mother's pregnancy.

Just what does "abortation" mean, Serb? Do tell, and put my mind at rest.

Gatekeeper

	19-01-2003 04:03									#58
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Serb's a troll Gatekeeper. I wouldn't take him too seriously.

	19-01-2003 08:56									#59
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It still amazes me that we got through the cold war alive if Serb represents the Russian people...

GP: the base in Mapo is about the ONLY thing that gives the Northern agitprop ANY play down here amongst the younger generation, the evangelicals*, and older student protest movement from the 70s.

The big base serves no military purpose that it couldn't do in the countryside. Right now it is like a huge sign that says 'Welcome to a US vassal'.

It is related because in order to solve the NK problem, the US must get SK 'onside' through legitimate, non-coercive means.

DanS: I'd like to assume that cutting off food aid is off the table for humanitarian reasons. If you cut it off, you aren't going to cause some kind of revolt, if they could revolt they would, and nothing from the privileged officer class.

To All: To expect China to do anything, let alone 'invade', is unrealistic. Statements cost nothing, they may even 'officially' close the border, but they still feel that Korea is their traditional 'little brother' and will, covertly or otherwise, support anything that lessens US influence.

*Really wierd thing about evangelical protestantism here in Korea, it's like the reverse of the US, they tend to support what in the US would be called 'left-wing' causes.
They also have this touching missionary style that is really naive, they just come up to you and tell you that Jebus loves you, and expect for you to just come with them or something.

	19-01-2003 09:00									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GP Explain. What is the Bush Doctrine? How did it cause the NK to cheat on their agreement (which had no effective inspection requirement anyway) for most of the 90's?

Bush doctrine was trying to get into a pissing contest with NK when they found out they'd been cheating.