19-01-2003 04:13									#31
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SlowwHand, no, amputating means for example amputating hand for thieves, penis for rapists, etc.

	19-01-2003 04:15									#32
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Hmmm. I'm for that.

	19-01-2003 04:18									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic SlowwHand, no, amputating means for example amputating hand for thieves, penis for rapists, etc.

I am very much against this... especially the rape thing...*shivers* Dont get me wrong, in a perfect world this would be great, but ( i forget the statistic exactly) in the US, many reported rapes are not actual rapes. The woman (or man) was consentual at first, as with a boy friend or something, and only called it rape after the fact for some reasons as extortion, black mail, getting back at him (her), etc. There have even been cases of wives bringing husbands to court under charges of rape

	19-01-2003 04:19									#34
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Whoa. Some votes for burning, and torturing.
I even vote against electric chair, and yet I get criticized for maliciousness ?

	19-01-2003 04:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Kramerman, yes, I feel the same about tortues/lashings also. Proteus_MST - I am not sure what situation is in other states about costs and durations of the trials for capital punishments, but in Lithuania when such punishments were legal it was no longer and no more expensive than any other courts. Just if person was proven guilty on such crime on which capital sentence applies he was executed (he had right to ask president for help but in most cases he refused). Life sentence is now considered equal to former capital sentences (so people who formerly got capital sentence but weren't executed because of abolishment of capital sentences, now has life sentences), thus triel time or cost doesn't differs.

In the USA Capital Punishment seems to be more expensive than Life sentence AFAIK.

There have been some Studies about it.

	19-01-2003 04:43									#36
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I voted for public stoning.

	19-01-2003 05:03									#38
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quote: Capital sentences - public axing head

well it happened all the time 1000 years ago. public axing could need a renaissance

btw, the spell checker has expired

	19-01-2003 05:05									#39
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quote: Giving person to public and allow them to do whatever they likes

no frickin way. there are too many wackos out there

	19-01-2003 05:28									#40
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loinburger, move to northern Nigeria then...

	19-01-2003 05:30									#41
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Gangervolf, axing is still being practiced in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

	19-01-2003 05:53									#42
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beheading? in public? I knew it was a ****ed up country but that's just sad.

what about public burning? anyone still doing that? haven't seen many witches lately

	19-01-2003 05:54									#43
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Proof that it is a successful punishment.

	19-01-2003 05:57									#44
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anyway, I voted the top 3 and bottom 2 options. (not counting the anarchy/banana option).

	19-01-2003 05:59									#45
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Follow Dracos' example; kill them all and let Satan sort them out.

	19-01-2003 06:19									#46
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Yes, they does that in Saudi Arabia. You can read about that more here, in an article written by witness of that execution:

http://www.gravelroads.com/saudi_ar..._eyewitness.htm

BTW, although I may sound controversial, I do certainly believe that Saudi justice system is one of the best in the world.

As for burning, probably no country now does it. However, most of other controversial punishments I mentioned in the list above are still practicised somewhere or were practicissed in not far past:

Capital punishment - hanging: Talib Afghanistan
Raping: Pakistan (unofficial tribal courts, which still has power in most of rural regions)
Tortuing: Israel (not verified)
Giving person to public and allow them to do whatever they likes: Equador
Forced physical exercises: Philipines
Capital sentences - public stoning: northern Nigerian states
Amputating/axing (hands, legs, etc.): Saudi Arabia (not verified)

Not sure about mast of shame and lashing though

	19-01-2003 07:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Boris Godunov... Drugdealer although doesn't kills himself, drugs kills a lot of people (and also forces them to steal, etc.) and they should be erradicated, thus we should apply maximum punishments for drugdealers.

If a person chooses to use drugs and dies as a result, the responsibility for his death is on his head. If he steals to get money for them, then it is also on his head. Banning drug use is immoral anyway, as it is telling people what to do with their bodies. Were we to lift the ban on drugs, the problems with violence would go down dramatically, the drug dealers would be put out of business, and we'd be able to regulate (and tax!) the drug trade. There is no moral justification for executing a drug dealer.

quote: What means of rehabilitation you'd offer in prisons yourself? Especially for drug users... Much of them doesn't wants or has ability to step out of drugs themselves...

Drug treatment programs can be very effective. Were drugs legal, regulated and taxed, the income could go to fund superior drug treatment facilities for addicts. Regardless, drugs shouldn't be illegal anyway.

As for other criminals, rehabilitating them, IMO, involves instilling discipline, self-worth, and providing them the means to re-integrate into society upon release. I propose prisons to be run like boot camps. I think that would be a far more effective way of doing things. Spartan boot camps where drill sergeant-esque guards whip these prisoners into moral shape as if they were in the marines.

quote: Tortuing (of types which couldn't damage body or leave traces) in my opinion would work in certain cases. Remember, punishment has to be bad for punished person.

Physical torture is not necessary to make prison unpleasant. Do you think anyone enjoys prison as it is? Prisons should be tough, but there is no moral justification for pointless torture.

quote: Tortue would work for either crimes commited already in jail or "small" violent crimes, like beating someone up (not very severely). I think some tortue (like hour or two) would be worse and probably make the punished person more to think than few days in jail...

Of course, it could also make the tortured person bitter and hungry for revenge. The death penalty doesn't deter people from committing murder, so I doubt the thought of torture will deter people from committing crimes.

It will also instill a sense of injustice in the convict, as they are likely not to see that their crime warranted being tortured. It would erase any moral authority the justice system has over the convicts.

The bottom line is that physical violence against another person is NEVER justified except in immediate defense of yourself or another. Any other use puts the state on a base level of gross injustice.

	19-01-2003 07:57									#48
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There are three reasons to any punishment of crime:
- protecting the public.
- education of the individual, and the public ("See what happens if you do this?")
- revenge.

the top two are legitimate, the last is not.
and all punishment should be based on utilitarian values.

	19-01-2003 08:03									#49
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why did so many vote "Life sentences"? I mean, locking someone up for the rest of their life is just as barbaric as some of the other options. 25 years should be the maximum sentence.

	19-01-2003 08:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic BTW, although I may sound controversial, I do certainly believe that Saudi justice system is one of the best in the world.

Nah... it's one of those things that works in theory.

For example; drinking is illegal but everybody does it. It means that the government can convict who they want and turn a blind eye to their friends or neutral parties. Sometimes this requires a bribe in the right places but mostly it is simply a political thing. They can deport journalists they don't like by producing proof that they have drunk alcohol - something which happens to many a budding foreign correspondant.

It's quite popular among Scots ( I don't know about other nations ) to go over to Saudi Arabia for work, especially as an engineer. One of my friends lived in SA for... two years as far as I remember when her dad got work there. Legally your employer can take your passport when you arrive and, if he decides he doesn't want you to leave once your alotted stay is up, can keep it for a period of... I think it's around six months... whether you like it or not.

	19-01-2003 08:13									#51
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yes I wish all those psychpaths and serial killers would come out. It's barbaric to hold them in.

as one of the phsychopath ( condtion which is not defined as insane, but lacking any compassion or moral ) serial killers desribed it himself : " I am certain that I will kill again if I am out of prison"

	19-01-2003 08:27									#52
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btw, torture is not used as a punishment in Israel.

there are allegations of using methods such as forcing people to stand up, or using voices of screams, and using ropes to tie up people while questioning captured terrorists. But torture as a PUNISHMENT? nope.

	19-01-2003 14:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Proof that it is a successful punishment.

And a cheap one too.
In the end you don´t have a corpse which has to be buried,
just a pile of ash

	19-01-2003 14:54									#54
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Establish a colony on the Moon, and send prisoners there. They have to work hard in the mines to earn a ticket home.

	19-01-2003 15:29									#55
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"drive safely or mine helium on the moon"

	19-01-2003 16:27									#56
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And for capital punishmewnt you can sent them to the surface without spacesuit

	19-01-2003 16:34									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf why did so many vote "Life sentences"? I mean, locking someone up for the rest of their life is just as barbaric as some of the other options. 25 years should be the maximum sentence.

Suppose a 20-year-old goes nuts, grabs an assault rifle and takes out 50 people in a mall. Do you really want him released when he reaches 45, especially considering he has just spent over half his life amongst hardened criminals?

	19-01-2003 17:32									#58
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yes. but of course, a person like that should get treatment in a mental institution, not be sent to prison.

	19-01-2003 18:03									#59
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Would you say the same about someone who abducts other people,
tortures them slowly to death (for example by cutting their limbs off one after the other) and who after he is caught (which doesn´t happen until after 10 years and after he has killed 10 people this way) doesn´t think he has been done something wrong but rather says he was just curious about how people die?

	19-01-2003 18:20									#60
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Boris Godunov... In my opinion you are very wrong about drugs. Most of criminals (I mean street thugs/muggers/thieves) are actually drug addicts, who needs money for yet a new dose. By legalising drugs we would stop nothing, just increase these "street crimes", which are actually the most annoying type of crime for average person. It's more than that: drug addicts frequently gets HIV and spreads them through moral population this way also, not to mention other drug addicts. You can say this could be solved by giving syringes free, but it wouldn't - we are using this practice here in Lithuania but many addicts doesn't takes syringes. Also, the state doesn't has money to cure HIV (to at least such degree that it wouldn't be passed to other people) and that money has to be taken from othr citizens and they could die because of that. If we won't battle drugusing we will soon become another Zimbabwe... Thus there is only way to end this problem - try to remove drug users from society by making this (and drugdealing) a capital crime. This obviously wouldn't remove drugs at all, but by killing current drug addicts we'd already remove much of them and probably some of others would fear to use drugs.

As for drug treatment programs, they are only effective if person himself wants to use them. Some persons doesn't has enough will for that and some doesn't even wants.

I think rehabilitating wouldn't work for most of prisoners, especially drug addicts, who'd need money immidietly after going out. By polls, it seems that drug addicts forms about 80% of criminals. Boot camp think also wouldn't help in my opinion, since I believe that just after going out of jail prisoners would want to "rest" from that boot camp and that means drinking, getting women/men, etc. After that, he'd probably go back into way of crime again after meeting his former friends/partners. I think such rehabilitation would probably help to only 5% or less percent, many of which doesn't does crimes anyway after jail. On sentences shorter than year probably more rehabilitation would work, that's why I think only such sentences should be legal.

As for tortue, how would you then propose to punish people for crimes commited in jail (like starting fights, insulting jail workers, etc.). Some people could want revenge, by the way, for jailing also, as well as for big fine or public works. Also, I did not say we should tortue for murder. I said we should tortue for small, but violent, crimes, like starting fights, vandalising, etc. Most of people doing this ussually aren't completely unrehabitable (they are sometimes just drunk), thus tortue would probably sometimes help.

Azazael, Israel is the only state in the world where such tortues are (officially) legal anyways...

Mad Monk, but do you know how much would it cost to send them to moon ? Probably more than food for all life...

Faboba, obviously you can't eliminate crimes completely. In American prohibition many people drunk also. However, most likely if drinking is banned many people wouldn't dare to drink in streets or in public. While actually the most problems comes exacly from those who drinks in public (they later starts fights, vandalises, urinates in public, insults people, etc.), not from those who drinks at home.

I also doubt anyone would like to get back in a period less than 6 months after they started working... Anyway, if I'd for some reason be expelled from Lithuania Saudi Arabia would be on my top choices where to go to live... Think about it: rich enough, good justice system, good infrastructure, streets more or less safe, not many drunk people, almost no drug addicts, almost no HIV, good justice system, good government (almost exacly matching my political views), low unemplyment, etc. What more would you want?