19-01-2003 21:58									#31
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The headline article was pretty lame. It didn't even back up the analysis with polling data.

	19-01-2003 22:34									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Sava, such kids are the same everywhere.

Actually that is not correct. In the USA youth, especially those with no memories of Vietnam, are more likely to favor action against Iraq then their older counterparts.

	19-01-2003 22:38									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Actually that is not correct. In the USA youth, especially those with no memories of Vietnam, are more likely to favor action against Iraq then their older counterparts.

Did you end up going to Pitt? Why not oos-nu?

	19-01-2003 22:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GP Did you end up going to Pitt? Why not oos-nu?

Yup I am U of Pitt. What is oos-nu?

	19-01-2003 22:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Yup I am U of Pitt. What is oos-nu?

Canoe U.

	20-01-2003 00:15									#36
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Wouldn't have gotten in there. From what I read in college review books, they look extensively at your high school extra-curricular stuff and are insistant upon seeing "leadership" there....

	20-01-2003 00:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Wouldn't have gotten in there. From what I read in college review books, they look extensively at your high school extra-curricular stuff and are insistant upon seeing "leadership" there....

Varsity letter in a sport is good enough.

Didn't you have any leadership? No president's of clubs? Or Eagle Scout?

	20-01-2003 00:55									#38
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Nope. Just as well I guess though I've never thought of myself as much of a leader anyway.

	20-01-2003 05:13									#39
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Any idea what Norht Korea's treaty demands would be? Back in the 1950s I think they made it clear that any peace treaty would have to involve the surrender of the southern government to the them. I don't know if their demands have changed.

	20-01-2003 05:32									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Any idea what Norht Korea's treaty demands would be? Back in the 1950s I think they made it clear that any peace treaty would have to involve the surrender of the southern government to the them. I don't know if their demands have changed.

Looks like the Southies know what they need to do.

	20-01-2003 10:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer America bashing is trendy for these kids. They've never faced a challenge in their lives, they're just trying to be cool. I say screw em, feed them to the wolves, then they'll respect what they had, or be dead. Either way, Americans shouldn't be in harms way for them.

Isn't it more likely that they are proud of their country and believe they can take care of themselves without having big brother around.

The South Koreans who want to kick the US forces out are saying they want and can take full responsibilities for the defence of their nation.

Then there are those who want the free economic and strategic benefits of keeping the US military in their country.

Who is more childish?

	20-01-2003 10:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Isn't it more likely that they are proud of their country and believe they can take care of themselves without having big brother around. The South Koreans who want to kick the US forces out are saying they want and can take full responsibilities for the defence of their nation. Then there are those who want the free economic and strategic benefits of keeping the US military in their country. Who is more childish?

Agreed. So let's dissolve any codefense treaties while we're at it. They really want to stand alone. Have a blast.

Tingkai...you little socialist, pacifist, wimp.

	20-01-2003 10:46									#43
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Tingkai, for different reasons we want the same thing, the US forces out of Korea.

GP is correct in his assertion that if the Koreans want us out we should cut defense ties. Otherwise when NK/Chinese forces once again drop by for a visit, the US might be obliged to AGAIN hit the beaches to get them out and incur greater losses...because we weren't dug in in place waiting for an invasion. So if we go we stay gone...

The little Korean cafe clutch brats are too good for us, lets see how they feel about NK stormtroopers beating them with riot sticks, driving them to work in the coal mines as they learn to be good socialist citizens .

Did you see the little goose stepping NK soldiers on the news? I'm sure they are MUCH preferable than those nasty Americans who saved SK once already...

	20-01-2003 11:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GP Agreed. So let's dissolve any codefense treaties while we're at it. They really want to stand alone. Have a blast. Tingkai...you little socialist, pacifist, wimp.

Drinking again, eh.

	20-01-2003 11:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Tingkai, for different reasons we want the same thing, the US forces out of Korea. GP is correct in his assertion that if the Koreans want us out we should cut defense ties. Otherwise when NK/Chinese forces once again drop by for a visit, the US might be obliged to AGAIN hit the beaches to get them out and incur greater losses...because we weren't dug in in place waiting for an invasion. So if we go we stay gone... The little Korean cafe clutch brats are too good for us, lets see how they feel about NK stormtroopers beating them with riot sticks, driving them to work in the coal mines as they learn to be good socialist citizens . Did you see the little goose stepping NK soldiers on the news? I'm sure they are MUCH preferable than those nasty Americans who saved SK once already...

Why should the US spread itself thin? Why not maintain the defence agreements, but use the more efficient method of the ROK providing the first line of defence and if need be the US can provide reserves. That would be cheaper for the US taxpayers and it would provide the US with more resources to deal with other problems.

Any pull out of US troops would have to be backed with strong statements that the US will still defend South Korea. Otherwise, the North Koreans might try their luck in the belief that the US won't intervene.

I have also read some commentators who argue that the US presence provides an incentive for the South Korea to keep the status quo. The presence of US troops means the ROK doesn't have to spend as much money on defence and provides a source of foreign exchange. This theory is flawed, but it has an essence of truth within it.

	20-01-2003 12:15									#46
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Remember Tingkai, the Koreans youth consider the US to be the "real threat". We wouldn't want to give them an excuse to continue their mindless hatred of the US.

Besides, militarily having 37,000 US soldiers in place saves lives in the event of an NK attack. Consider that NK almost made it last time out...drove SK forces all the way to Pusan...and just about into the sea. It was only US led allied forces that stopped them, and a very nasty US led invasion at Inchon that turned it around. Thanks, but I'd rather the US didn't have to do all that AGAIN. I'd rather the American men not have to buy that real estate with their blood AGAIN. No, if the South Koreans are so shallow to really want us out, and to hate us as the "real threat" they can go to hell for all I care.

	20-01-2003 12:21									#47
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Unfortunately withdrawal from SK isn't going to happen. If NK were to conquer the South, there would be a global recession. Which is why no President would ever withdraw unless SK demanded it. Too bad though, I think it'd be good to let SK serve as an example. Having the South Koreans subjected to communist slavery would serve as an excellent example against taking the US for granted.

	20-01-2003 12:30									#48
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Just read this in the Economist.

America has the "tendency to underestimate the peoples of the region and to overestimate America's ability to make a bad situation better," Douglas Little, an American professor, wrote in American Orientalism: The United States and the Middle East since 1945.

His comments may be about the Middle East, but they seem apropos to South Korea.

	20-01-2003 12:42									#49
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Shi, that's right.

Back in the '70s when I was in Germany a friend and I were walking around Bamburg barhopping. We went into one place, quietly took stools at the bar and sat chatting for about 10 minutes when I noticed that the bar tender was serving ppl that had come in after us. When he had a free moment I waved him down and ordered a couple of beers. The reply? "We don't serve American soldiers here".

...and this was ok with the other patrons who just looked at us.

Few things have made me so angry in my life, but we just got up and left.

We went from Bamburg up to Hof which was a border town. That was our cycle in the border guards. Anyway, I much prefered it on the border because the Germans there lived close enough to the border to appreciate the Americans who were there to protect them from what they could see happening on the other side. The fences, minefields and concrete watch towers that made the Soviet empire into a huge prison was not lost on these people. We were never turned down for service. On the contrary, we got smiles and occasionally a free beer from the friendly people of Hof. I always wanted to go back.

	20-01-2003 12:50									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GP Looks like the Southies know what they need to do.

	20-01-2003 13:06									#51
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quote: America has the "tendency to underestimate the peoples of the region and to overestimate America's ability to make a bad situation better," Douglas Little, an American professor, wrote in American Orientalism: The United States and the Middle East since 1945.

lots of guys say lots of things, and a lot of what they say stims from secondary information, and its application to a region other than intended (the middle east to north korea) is dangerous speculation and extrapolation, especially if this statement is being misconstrued from its original context, even just slightly. I could just as easily find multiple other professors, scientists, politicians, etc with a dozen conflicting ideas and views from this man.

quote: We went from Bamburg up to Hof which was a border town. That was our cycle in the border guards. Anyway, I much prefered it on the border because the Germans there lived close enough to the border to appreciate the Americans who were there to protect them from what they could see happening on the other side. The fences, minefields and concrete watch towers that made the Soviet empire into a huge prison was not lost on these people. We were never turned down for service. On the contrary, we got smiles and occasionally a free beer from the friendly people of Hof. I always wanted to go back.

Here, this is a first hand experience. Its application to korea is also extrapolation, but due to the hands-on nature of this experience, clear in its context, it has much more significance and likelyhood than Douglas Little's statement (i would think, anyway )

Kman

	20-01-2003 13:35									#52
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I think the growing problem we have with the SK's is just one more example of the problem we should expect when we leave an occupying army in a “liberated” country after a war. We have the same problem in Germany. We now have the problem in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

We must recognize, IMHO, that we need to withdraw after a war. This obviously leads one to the conclusion that we should finish wars so that we can withdraw within a reasonable time. Korea and Kuwait are good examples of not finishing wars. Vietnam was another – although in that case we did withdraw.

	20-01-2003 14:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman its application to a region other than intended (the middle east to north korea) is dangerous speculation and extrapolation

Dangerous? Care to explain. Seems a bit over the top to me.

	20-01-2003 20:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Drinking again, eh.

	20-01-2003 20:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the growing problem we have with the SK's is just one more example of the problem we should expect when we leave an occupying army in a “liberated” country after a war. We have the same problem in Germany. We now have the problem in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. We must recognize, IMHO, that we need to withdraw after a war. This obviously leads one to the conclusion that we should finish wars so that we can withdraw within a reasonable time. Korea and Kuwait are good examples of not finishing wars. Vietnam was another – although in that case we did withdraw.

Interesting point. I talked to a very bright (for a Marine) 3-star general, who made the analogy of a lifeguard. (He had been in charge of the Marine aid mission in Somalia.) People like being the lifeguard a lot more than being the saved swimmer. AFter a while they start to resent the lifeguard. It is human nature. This is what he had seen in Somalia. Initial happiness, followed by growing resentment.

	20-01-2003 20:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Back in the '70s when I was in Germany a friend and I were walking around Bamburg barhopping. We went into one place, quietly took stools at the bar and sat chatting for about 10 minutes when I noticed that the bar tender was serving ppl that had come in after us. When he had a free moment I waved him down and ordered a couple of beers. The reply? "We don't serve American soldiers here".

When I was in Kaisserslaughtern that happened to my friends and I. Only they said "This bar is for Germans only". One of my friends was black and I've always suspect the reason they didn't want to give us a beer was racism.

	20-01-2003 21:00									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why should the US spread itself thin? Why not maintain the defence agreements, but use the more efficient method of the ROK providing the first line of defence and if need be the US can provide reserves. That would be cheaper for the US taxpayers and it would provide the US with more resources to deal with other problems.

It would be even cheaper if we didn't have any troops over there at all. And in your cost-benefit analysis, I think you are ignoring the costs of bringing troops into a theater, when needed (i.e. in a war). The costs of amphibious assualt. Can you say "Inchon"? The costs of a greater chance of HAVING a war.

Scratch your brain and think about it.

And at the end of the day, what's in it for us? Why should we extend a defense agreement to a country that doesn't want us there? REsents us. Go with God...

	20-01-2003 22:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the growing problem we have with the SK's is just one more example of the problem we should expect when we leave an occupying army in a “liberated” country after a war. We have the same problem in Germany. We now have the problem in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. We must recognize, IMHO, that we need to withdraw after a war. This obviously leads one to the conclusion that we should finish wars so that we can withdraw within a reasonable time. Korea and Kuwait are good examples of not finishing wars. Vietnam was another – although in that case we did withdraw.

The problem is in the case of South Korea is that having troops actually there guarantees US intervention- without the troops there NK might invade hoping we don't intervene. Moreover, NK has a standing army that is much, much bigger then SK's- however South Korea has a huge reserve army which if mobilized would give them an army of comprable size. If South Korea did have enough time to mobilize their reserves, they would probably win the war with their technological, aerial, and economic advantages. If we had to wait to deploy those troops we had in Korea, they might not get there in time before SK is overrun.