19-01-2003 10:14									#1
	ANALYSIS: Younger Koreans View America as Real Threat Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Everyone:

I ran across this analysis piece by a Knight Ridder writer earlier this week and finally found the time to post it. The bolding contained within is mine. Read the article and contribute to this thread as you see fit afterwards.

***

quote: S Korea’s younger generation increasingly anti-American By Michael Dorgan Knight Ridder Newspapers SEOUL, South Korea — Sipping a latte in Seoul’s trendy downtown Myeong-dong district, 20-year-old Park Jin-woo pondered a paradox that has huge implications for South Korea, the United States and all of northeast Asia. It’s this: As South Korea’s younger generation has grown more Western in recent years in its tastes and lifestyle, it has become increasingly anti-American. The North Korean nuclear standoff has revealed deep strains within the once rock-solid U.S.-South Korean relationship. Underlying those strains is a generation gap in South Korea that pits a generally pro-American older generation against a younger generation increasingly suspicious of the United States and less worried by North Korea. ‘‘Older people do not understand our clothing and our hair styles,’’ said Park, gesturing toward his own fashionably ****gy henna-dyed locks. ‘‘And older people, including my parents, do not believe that North Korea has changed its attitude. But younger people believe that North Korea will gradually — not suddenly, but gradually — change.’’ Seoul’s Myeong-dong district, where 20-year-old Park was having coffee at Starbucks, is full of American fast food restaurants and clothing franchises. Young Koreans on the streets would not look out of place in Chicago or San Francisco. Bookstores and record shops reflect a strong influence, if not dominance, of American culture. But just a few blocks away at the fenced and fortified U.S. Embassy, which is perpetually surrounded by riot police to fend off protesters, young Koreans gather almost daily to denounce America. Sometimes their numbers are small, sometimes large. One evening this week, only a few dozen showed up at a demonstration called to protest the acquittal of two U.S. soldiers involved in a road accident last summer that killed two teenage girls. On New Year’s Eve, more than 10,000 gathered to demonstrate over the same issue. Many protesters at both events called for the withdrawal of all U.S. troops from South Korea. The United States has no plans to withdraw its troops because they are crucial to South Korea’s security and the stability of northeast Asia, American officials say. But a U.S. official in Seoul, who asked that he not be identified, said recently that plans are underway to move the command garrison out of the capital to lower the U.S. military’s profile and ease tensions. The ‘‘future shape’’ of the U.S. role in South Korea’s security is under study, the official added. ‘‘The United States is a bigger threat to South Korea than North Korea is,’’ said Han In-suk, a 17-year-old high school student who attended one of this week’s protests despite orders from her parents not to go. Han’s anti-American sentiments are incomprehensible to Lee Sung-soo, a slim 76-year-old Korean War veteran who ran a small auto parts business before he retired. ‘‘I’m worried about the generation gap,’’ he said. ‘‘The young guys are very simple in their thoughts. They don’t know who keeps peace on the Korean peninsula.’’ According to Lee, peace on the peninsula and prosperity in South Korea are in large part due to the security umbrella provided by the United States. ‘‘If North Korea has nuclear weapons, it will destroy us,’’ he said. ‘‘We need U.S. troops in Korea.’’ The generation gap between Han and Lee is explained partly by the vast difference in life experiences of older and younger South Koreans. Those over 55 have painful memories of a brutal war in which more than 2 million people died, including 33,000 American soldiers. Those over 40 have vivid recollections of grueling poverty and hardship, as well as terrifying threats from North Korea. South Koreans in their 20s and 30s have no experience of war. Most have not suffered privation. Rather, they have enjoyed the growing affluence and rising expectations in one of the world’s fastest growing economies. Differences of opinion do not end there. Most older South Koreans still regard the United States as a protector that saved the country from an invasion by North Korea 53 years ago. They want the 37,000 U.S. troops that remain in South Korea to stay as a deterrent to North Korea. A growing number of younger South Koreans, though, view the United States not as a protector but as a bully impeding unification of the Korean peninsula. ‘‘My parents suffered during the Korean War and they began to believe that South Korea has to depend on the United States,’’ said Park, a computer science major at Ajou University just outside of Seoul. ‘‘We were born after the South Korean economy began to develop, and we have begun to think that South Korea can survive on its own.’’ But the generation gap cannot be blamed entirely on different life experiences. It also is a byproduct of President Kim Dae-jung’s ‘‘sunshine’’ policy, which for the past five years has promoted eventual reunification of the divided Korean peninsula through a process of aid, investment and dialogue with isolated and bankrupt North Korea. The policy won President Kim a Nobel Peace Prize but has not produced many tangible results. However, it has led to a decline in the perception that the North is a threat, in large part because North Korea’s propaganda machine has re-targeted most of its verbal attacks on Washington and Tokyo rather than Seoul. The South Korean president, in his push for better relations with North Korea, has dangerously downplayed the military threat from North Korea, his critics say. He has done so, they say, even though most of North Korea’s million-man army remains offensively deployed near the South Korean border and even though North Korea’s missiles have grown more numerous and lethal. ‘‘The government is partly to blame for the generation gap,’’ said KyongMann Jeon, an analyst at the Korea Institute for Defense Analysis, a government-funded research organization in Seoul. He and others say that Kim even downplayed the disclosure by the United States last fall that North Korea, by pursuing a secret uranium enrichment program, had violated several international agreements not to develop nuclear weapons. Jeon said the Kim administration apparently feared that a strong condemnation of North Korea would expose the failure of his approach toward the North and generate a voter backlash in last month’s presidential election. Kim backed candidate Roh Moo-hyun, who campaigned on a ‘‘sunshine’’ policy platform. Roh spoke to the anti-American sentiments held by young voters. He boasted of never having visited the United States and criticized politicians who had for ‘‘kowtowing’’ to the superpower. It was a winning strategy. Roh, who will take office next month, won the election by winning support from the vast majority of voters in their 20s and 30s. Security analyst Soon Young-Sun, also with the Korea Institute for Defense Analysis, said the election marked a profound shift in the politics of South Korea and in U.S.-South Korean relations. Young voters whose thinking has been shaped by the ‘‘sunshine’’ policy ‘‘have the energy and power to push policy over the next five years,’’ she said.

***

This all leaves me with a single question: What prevents South Korea and North Korea from signing a formal peace treaty ending the Korean War?

Surely a formal peace treaty between the two nations would help the North feel less "threatened" by U.S. and South Korean forces, would it not? We could then move out some, or all, of the 37,000 troops we have there (along, presumably, with a good deal of material), thereby lessening the North's paranoia even more.

I think that's what needed to ensure peace on the Korean peninsula (and it would also enhance prospects for reunification in the future): a full, formal peace treaty between NK and SK (negotiated by NK and SK, w/no U.S. participation, since this is a matter between the Koreas). From there, begin honest-to-God negotiations for reunification, ala Germany.

Gatekeeper

	19-01-2003 10:27									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Honestly, this is nothing new. According to one soldier I talked with who served in Korea, he said that the RoK soldiers are considered unreliable by the US. After all, where do all those anti-American kids go after they're finished with school . . . ? The military to do their compulsory service.

	19-01-2003 10:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What prevents them?

The Republic of Korea is the legimate Korea. The North is an enslaved population controlled by a mass of complicit, brutal guys.

A peace treaty would be seen as an acknowledgement of legitimacy. Even the most left wing SKs still believe the North is a part of Korea, refer to it as the 'other provinces' etc.

Also, a peace treaty might lead to 'normalizing' the border, which could be very bad for security in the South.

What they need is for an 'East Germany' type situation to develop whereby the NK soldiersand officers become so disgusted that they join their people and ignore the Kim regime.

NOTE: Believe it or not but my co-worker actually met President Roh only a few days before he was elected. He is currently very popular, mostly because of his response to the reporter
"America? No, I've never been there."
Which was interpreted by people in many ways...

	19-01-2003 10:34									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

When I was in Korea the ROKs had a reputation for being hard fighters who fought on despite over welling odds. One of the largest difference I saw in Korea was social class; the poor were more likely to be soldiers and anti-communist while the rich university students were generally highly nationalist and anti-American.

It's kind of backwards from what I expected. Who would have thought the privilaged bougious would be pro-communist?

Of course the absolute BIGGIST break down occured by age. Those old enough to remember the horrors of the communist invasion were militantly anti-communist while the young who've never known anything but prosparity were generally nationalistic (and thus anti-American).

	19-01-2003 10:37									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

America is the bigger threat to peace in the region.

	19-01-2003 10:40									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Seeker A peace treaty would be seen as an acknowledgement of legitimacy. Even the most left wing SKs still believe the North is a part of Korea, refer to it as the 'other provinces' etc.

I wasn't aware of the part beyond the legitimacy concerns.

But if such concerns prevent the signing of a formal peace treaty, the U.S. will probably not withdraw its troops anytime soon, and younger Koreans will continue to view them — naively, for the most part, IMHO — as a threat, which feeds into a never-ending vicious circle.

quote: Also, a peace treaty might lead to 'normalizing' the border, which could be very bad for security in the South.

Assuming that NK doesn't honor its part of the peace treaty which, I agree, might not be likely considering their abrogation of the 1994 Framework Agreement. NK seems to be quite good at using infiltrators, after all.

quote: What they need is for an 'East Germany' type situation to develop whereby the NK soldiersand officers become so disgusted that they join their people and ignore the Kim regime.

I don't know if that'll ever happen. I've read various reports that indicate most of the food aid NK gets goes primarily to the elite — i.e., those folks (in the military and out of it) who Kim relies on for his power base. The general population gets the leftovers, with the words that the food is "tribute" from a world fearful of NK's military wrath (which, actually, might not be so far from the truth).

quote: NOTE: Believe it or not but my co-worker actually met President Roh only a few days before he was elected. He is currently very popular, mostly because of his response to the reporter "America? No, I've never been there." Which was interpreted by people in many ways...

So perhaps SK's new president will run head-on into harsh reality soon, much as Bush has of late ...

Gatekeeper

	19-01-2003 10:41									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's kind of backwards from what I expected. Who would have thought the privilaged bougious would be pro-communist?

They aren't. They're hard-core nationalists. The communists/revolutionary socialist movement is rather small among the students. The place where you see the largest section of communists and socialists is actually in the industrial sector, but these guys are no sympathyzers with the north. They are closer to actual communists of any movement existing in the world. The Socialist Party USA has some contacts with them.

	19-01-2003 10:49									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They aren't. They're hard-core nationalists. The communists/revolutionary socialist movement is rather small among the students. The place where you see the largest section of communists and socialists is actually in the industrial sector, but these guys are no sympathyzers with the north. They are closer to actual communists of any movement existing in the world. The Socialist Party USA has some contacts with them.

Miserable fellow travelers who don't follow the correct party line from the locomotive of the Party. They will be liquidated even faster than the bourgusie after the Revolution.

	19-01-2003 10:51									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gatekeeper, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Be protected and complain about the protector. Maybe we would be better off letting them deal with the peninsular on their own.

	19-01-2003 10:51									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Unless the Chinese get involved, the South should be able to handle an invasion by the North. We should give the South a few theatre nuke missiles and pull out.

	19-01-2003 11:04									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

LOL, they don't honour the EXISTING DMZ agreement, just this week they were caught deploying weapons in it in flagrant breach!

There is a new 'corridor' being opened for wildlife, the lone tour bus, etc, but like clockwork there were the NKs deploying weapons like they thought noone would see.

	19-01-2003 11:08									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The North Koreans are an altogether different kind of scary. They aren't communists. They're a cult masquerading as a country. Think Utah with an army.

	19-01-2003 11:09									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

yikes! although there are some mormon-like people running our country, and running into the ground...

	19-01-2003 11:09									#14
	Remove this text

quote: ‘‘I’m worried about the generation gap,’’ he said. ‘‘The young guys are very simple in their thoughts."

Sadly, isn't this true everywhere? I don't think American youth are any more intelligent...

	19-01-2003 11:10									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Seeker LOL, they don't honour the EXISTING DMZ agreement, just this week they were caught deploying weapons in it in flagrant breach! There is a new 'corridor' being opened for wildlife, the lone tour bus, etc, but like clockwork there were the NKs deploying weapons like they thought noone would see.

Maybe the SKs can sunshine them in retaliation.

	19-01-2003 11:11									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The North Koreans are an altogether different kind of scary. They aren't communists. They're a cult masquerading as a country. Think Utah with an army.

That would never happen with Stalin or Mao.

	19-01-2003 11:17									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sava America is the bigger threat to peace in the region.

Please explain to me how that is so?

	19-01-2003 11:18									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Please explain to me how that is so?

Don't encourage him, Oerdin...

	19-01-2003 11:19									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

America bashing is trendy for these kids. They've never faced a challenge in their lives, they're just trying to be cool. I say screw em, feed them to the wolves, then they'll respect what they had, or be dead. Either way, Americans shouldn't be in harms way for them.

	19-01-2003 11:20									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This whole part of the "standoff" started with that stupid "axis of evil" speech. And to prove Dubya has abigger shlong than Kim, Bush provokes him every time Kim responds with sabre-rattling.

	19-01-2003 11:22									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Lancer America bashing is trendy for these kids. They've never faced a challenge in their lives, they're just trying to be cool. I say screw em, feed them to the wolves, then they'll respect what they had, or be dead. Either way, Americans shouldn't be in harms way for them.

funny, considering you're completely ignorant of who I am, where I come from, what my life is like... but go ahead, make yourself look stupid... its actually fun, I should know!

	19-01-2003 11:24									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The North Koreans are an altogether different kind of scary. They aren't communists. They're a cult masquerading as a country. Think Utah with an army.

I can agree with you there Che. These guys are scary and fanatical.

	19-01-2003 11:31									#23
	Tired of ads?

Sava, such kids are the same everywhere.

All I need is a knowledge of history in order to determine that they have their heads well imbedded in their butts.

	19-01-2003 11:32									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

LOL, Kim is claims that he was born on the same sacred mountain where the First Emperor of Korea, Tanggun, descended to the Earthly Realm and sacrificed on the Altar of Heaven there. He claims that he was born amidst 'smoke and thunder'. In Korea, this is like saying you're a kind of god.

He was actually born somewhere in the Soviet Far East, the Khabarovsk area.

If you're wondering about how a 'Stalinist' can invoke the traditional gods, remember this is a country much like Japan, where everyone holds seemingly contradictory religious beliefs.

For example, there is a Seventh Day Adventist who is always going on about Jebus and Bible Study, yet at the same time he sacrifices to the Ancestors on Cho Suk, and tells his kids the story of the Tiger and the Bear, it's kind of wierd.

Here's another one..." I believe in the Lord Jebus Christ with all my heart, but I am a Korean and I know that Korea is a Divine Land of the Gods (or however that translates)"

	19-01-2003 11:33									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava ... but go ahead, make yourself look stupid... its actually fun, I should know!

Yes, that is astoundingly clear.

	19-01-2003 11:34									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: ‘‘I’m worried about the generation gap,’’ he said. ‘‘The young guys are very simple in their thoughts." Sadly, isn't this true everywhere? I don't think American youth are any more intelligent...

Sadly the posts here at 'poly prove that.

At the risk of sounding like an old man I think the world would be a better place if the young idealists who want to "do something, anything" were tempered by the knowledge of their elders. More often then not young people spout off about things they no nothing about; I know I was (and maybe still am) like that.

	19-01-2003 11:39									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: At the risk of sounding like an old man I think the world would be a better place if the young idealists who want to "do something, anything" were tempered by the knowledge of their elders.

Agreed. You would think this would happen in Korea, with its Confucian background and all, but the youth there don't seem to be listening to their elders. That may be the worst Western habit they've picked up...

	19-01-2003 11:53									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The old/young division you are talking about is not very apparent on the streets around here.

Also, remember that in Korea you must usually finish your compulsory military service before entering university, so a university student is usually late 20s.

Ironically, because one of the most popular options for compulsory service is the relatively easy police one, the police who confront the protestors are made up of young, inexperienced 18-21 year old, while the protestors are mostly older and some younger, the reverse of the US 'young student vs old cops' situation.

Confucianism:
There are left wing profs in SK. Teachers are very high status. Professors might as well be Moses on the Mount when they prounounce on what is right and wrong.

Also, the intergenerational nature of the conflict has been exaggerated, partly because the older left wing people would find it very difficult to take time off a 6 dayweek , no paid sick days, strong work ethic job to attend a protest.

The 'leftist' movement in Korea cut its teeth in the 80s here in Korea, fighting with the recently arrested dictators forces. The kids of the student radicals, are naturally, ALSO student radicals.

	19-01-2003 19:01									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sava This whole part of the "standoff" started with that stupid "axis of evil" speech. And to prove Dubya has abigger shlong than Kim, Bush provokes him every time Kim responds with sabre-rattling.

Bullshit. Kim is a freaking weirdo. We are talking about a regime that periodically sends psycho assassing swimmers into SK.

	19-01-2003 21:38									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sava This whole part of the "standoff" started with that stupid "axis of evil" speech. And to prove Dubya has abigger shlong than Kim, Bush provokes him every time Kim responds with sabre-rattling.

Wrong as usual, dim wit. The accusations about their cheating on the aid for quiting nuclear agreement goes back years into the Clinton administration, and the withholding of portions of aid while asking for answers about the cheating began over a year before the axis of evil speech. Can't you get anything right?