20-01-2003 10:30									#61
	Remove this text

yah, I know how mcuh it sucks to being doing something that does not work

my thesis was that way

Jon Miller

	20-01-2003 10:36									#62
	Put an end to popups!

Play it smart, big guy. Those fooks. I mean professors. rEally don't care about wasting a grad student on a very difficult problem with little chance of success. They've got tenure. Very different incentives. Pick something easy, where you can get results fast and start publishing very fast.

	20-01-2003 10:36									#63
	Got spare money?

quote: Come on, I dare ya. Prove me wrong

Haahaa, you were wrong, Tass

	20-01-2003 11:07									#64
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by GP Play it smart, big guy. Those fooks. I mean professors. rEally don't care about wasting a grad student on a very difficult problem with little chance of success. They've got tenure.

My prof's got me doing research on introspective computer programs, i.e. he's got me looking for The Holy Grail.

Ah well, it pays the bills, so **** it -- no harm no foul.

	20-01-2003 11:13									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by loinburger My prof's got me doing research on introspective computer programs, i.e. he's got me looking for The Holy Grail. Ah well, it pays the bills, so **** it -- no harm no foul.

You DON'T want to look for the Holy Grail as a grad student. You want a simple, quick research projkect. Nad than be gone. If you are a PI, the incentives are different. But as a student, take the easy route.

	20-01-2003 11:25									#66
	Suffering from ads?

I can't really complain, it pays the bills -- I'm not locked into the Holy Grail search for my thesis, only for my assistantship. I've been given a helluva lot of leeway on how I proceed with the research, too, so I've got a feeling that most of it will conveniently bleed over into my thesis preparation.

Fortunately, while I probably won't find the Holy Grail, I'm almost guaranteed to find the Holy Styrafoam Cup in the process, and that's Good Enough for a thesis.

	20-01-2003 11:27									#67
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by loinburger I can't really complain, it pays the bills -- I'm not locked into the Holy Grail search for my thesis, only for my assistantship. I've been given a helluva lot of leeway on how I proceed with the research, too, so I've got a feeling that most of it will conveniently bleed over into my thesis preparation. Fortunately, while I probably won't find the Holy Grail, I'm almost guaranteed to find the Holy Styrafoam Cup in the process, and that's Good Enough for a thesis.

Ok. But there is no point in doing research that doesn't benefit you. Cram it into the thesis. Or ditch it.

	20-01-2003 11:35									#68
	Support Apolyton

Not a problem, the amount that hasn't been written on introspective software is incredible -- if I can't find a Styrafoam Cup out of it then I should probably go back to building retention walls.

The only real question is whether I stay on for a doctorate or leave after a master's -- I've basically got the assistantship for as long as I want it, so funding's taken care of. I figure there's no need to decide for another year, though.

	20-01-2003 16:25									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Frozzy In the CtPDG, didn't some one call you Locust, Loc?

Yes, quite amusing

If it hadn't been about the 247th time that someone has done that..

	20-01-2003 21:10									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by loinburger Not a problem, the amount that hasn't been written on introspective software is incredible -- if I can't find a Styrafoam Cup out of it then I should probably go back to building retention walls. The only real question is whether I stay on for a doctorate or leave after a master's -- I've basically got the assistantship for as long as I want it, so funding's taken care of. I figure there's no need to decide for another year, though.

More unsolicited advice. Publish. Publish. Publish. GEt every single drop of publishable articles out of your research as you can. Publish several papers instead of one (you can always do a review where you wrap them together.) I published early DESPITE my advisor showing little interest in my work and doubitng if it would be accepted. He got invited to mroe conferences as a result of my stuff than from his standard crap. (AndI made sure to go to some conferences off of it also.) I was able to write my thesis in 10 days. No kidding. Because I just cut and pasted all of my publications.

	20-01-2003 21:32									#71
	Support Apolyton

What's your take on Ph.D's for folks not going into academia? All of the advice I've gotten so far has been useless, since my relatives are split down party lines -- the ones with Ph.D's say that I should get one, the ones who haven't got Ph.D's say that a doctorate is a waste of time. My undergraduate profs are equally useless -- the one who got his Ph.D right off the bat says that I should do the same, and the one who waited twenty years to get his says that I should do the same. And of course my advisor isn't even worth asking, his answer's pretty much a given.

	20-01-2003 22:32									#72
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by loinburger What's your take on Ph.D's for folks not going into academia? All of the advice I've gotten so far has been useless, since my relatives are split down party lines -- the ones with Ph.D's say that I should get one, the ones who haven't got Ph.D's say that a doctorate is a waste of time. My undergraduate profs are equally useless -- the one who got his Ph.D right off the bat says that I should do the same, and the one who waited twenty years to get his says that I should do the same. And of course my advisor isn't even worth asking, his answer's pretty much a given.

1. If you do it, get it done fast. If they're not willing to have you do it fast, don't stay to do one.

2. In CS or engineering, it's probably less important to have a Ph.D. than in Chemistry or Physics.

3. Would be good for you to publish though, regardless. You learn something from going through the process of doing a peer-reviewed paper.

	20-01-2003 23:55									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What's "fast"? I might be able to pull one off in two-and-a-half or three years if I busted my balls...

	21-01-2003 00:02									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

wow, I think it will take me 5 or 6

Jon Miller

	21-01-2003 00:09									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Any amount of bullshit is accepted for AI theses. Makes the process go a lot faster.

I've also gotta take a heavy class schedule to keep my assistantship, so I wind up meeting the credit requirements much faster than usual.

	21-01-2003 01:51									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Yep. That's my theory. Everyone's Net nickname can, and at some point will, be shortened to six letters or less. Come on, I dare ya. Prove me wrong.

On another forum, I use the nickname Watcher. How are you going to shorten that?

	21-01-2003 01:59									#77
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by loinburger What's "fast"? I might be able to pull one off in two-and-a-half or three years if I busted my balls...

The norm used to be about 4 years from bachelors to Ph.D. That is now considered a little fast. 3 years is considered noteworthy. Just realize people will be much more impressed with a quick Ph.D. than a good one. It is not uncommon to hear of much longer Ph.D.'s although this varies by field and by school. NU chemistry had a reputation for wanting to go more by the old system, nominally 4 years.

I personally think the whole system (at least in chemistry) is kind of overdone. It's basically a system of getting low-priced (but quite bright lab techs) to do work for a while in exchange for the union card. I was done with classes in a year (took some more next year, just because I was interested but I was considered odd...and was discouraged from doing so.) And I had "learned how to do research" in a few months. Within 2 years I had enough papers to stitch into a thesis. I could have gotten out in 3 years, but stayed because employers didn't take me seriously when I started interviewing at the 2 year point. And because I wanted to do a masters in Mat Sci along with the chemistry. Plus, it was relaxing and I had another free year of scholarship. But from a career basis, I would have been better out, stitching it together and getting out quicker. Granted, I picked an easy project and had some advantages in terms of maturity and previous training. But still there are lots of people in Berkely spending 6 or 7 years doing their Ph.D. when they ought to be out in 4.

WRT you: How long have you been there? Where are you? Describe the program. Do you have a masters? Need more data to give an opinion.

	21-01-2003 02:09									#78
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller wow, I think it will take me 5 or 6 Jon Miller

Too long. Try for 4. If not possible, push for 5. Even with a solid first 2 years of coursework (no research). That is 2-3 years to do your research. REalistically a thesis is a glorified research paper. If you get 3 decent publications, that should be enough for a dissertation (nobody will read the thing anyway after you leave). Just slap an lit search/intro on the front, maybe a section on experimental methods if you want to give mroe detail than possible in your publications, and you are good to go. That's sort of a minimalist version. But I had about 9 pubs when I left: 5 or 6 of which were solid individual peices of work. Make each pub a chapter, add the front stuff and you've got your dissertation.

Don't feel like you have to explain the photelectric effect. How many people really do. I've seen lots of people at the 7 year mark, just wrapping all theri crap into a snowball, pushing the dissertation through and getting the piled high and deeper. If you just do some useful publications ASAP, you can do better than that anyway. Don't worry about making a fundamental breakthrough. Just get about 3-5 papers in the equivalent of Chemistry of Materials or Journal of Applied Physics (don't need to be in Phys Rev or Nature...just solid sub-specialty journals) on related theme. And than wrap and fly.

Jon, when picking an advisor, make sure that you discuss length of time requirements. Also talk to the students under them. And get the facts on their last 3 students graduated and how long it took. Professors have a huge incentive to keep talented grad students once they are productive. Just realize that.

	21-01-2003 02:11									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

physics averages 5.5

anything over 6 is considered long

anything under 5 is considered quick

under 4 is very quick, I don't know personally anyone who had done it (I know someone who did it in math, but I only know one person who did it in math)

Jon Miller

	21-01-2003 02:12									#80
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was going to try for 4, but now I am thinking 5 or 6

I mean, I am not pushing myself this year (an just taking the standard, am not putting in any extra work...)

Jon Miller

	21-01-2003 02:14									#81
	Remove this text

quote: On another forum, I use the nickname Watcher. How are you going to shorten that?

"Watch".

And I didn't even break a sweat!

(Is this enough to jack my thread back? )

	21-01-2003 02:16									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Anyone who can think of a corruption of my name that I haven't seen before gets a cookie

Cutie!

	21-01-2003 02:43									#83
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by GP WRT you: How long have you been there? Where are you? Describe the program. Do you have a masters? Need more data to give an opinion.

I've been at Wright State University (right next to Wright-Patt airforce base) for two weeks, been working on my research for six. I'm scheduled to get my M.S. in December 2003, and (if my class load this quarter is any indication, and it oughta be a pretty good one) there shouldn't be any roadblocks in that plan. (This is why I don't really need to make up my mind on the doctorate for another year.) The program's focus is very heavy on the AI (language processing, machine learning, etc.), with just a smattering of everything else (numerical analysis, compilers, etc.) -- most of the non-AI Computer Science courses are actually counted as Computer Engineering courses instead.

This is the page describing the doctorate requirements. Most people complete the required 136 credit hours in 4-5 years (or more), since the average full-time grad student takes (IIRC) 32 credit hours per year. I'll be completing the required hours in 2-3 years, though, since I'm required to take 48 credit hours per year to keep my assistantship. Assuming I don't **** around on my thesis it'll mostly just be a matter of convincing my advisor to let me go when the time comes, but I don't foresee any problem there -- he's decided that he likes me, God help him, so he's more than reasonable in dealing with me.

	21-01-2003 02:55									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by loinburger I've been at Wright State University (right next to Wright-Patt airforce base) for two weeks, been working on my research for six. I'm scheduled to get my M.S. in December 2003, and (if my class load this quarter is any indication, and it oughta be a pretty good one) there shouldn't be any roadblocks in that plan. (This is why I don't really need to make up my mind on the doctorate for another year.) The program's focus is very heavy on the AI (language processing, machine learning, etc.), with just a smattering of everything else (numerical analysis, compilers, etc.) -- most of the non-AI Computer Science courses are actually counted as Computer Engineering courses instead. This is the page describing the doctorate requirements. Most people complete the required 136 credit hours in 4-5 years (or more), since the average full-time grad student takes (IIRC) 32 credit hours per year. I'll be completing the required hours in 2-3 years, though, since I'm required to take 48 credit hours per year to keep my assistantship. Assuming I don't **** around on my thesis it'll mostly just be a matter of convincing my advisor to let me go when the time comes, but I don't foresee any problem there -- he's decided that he likes me, God help him, so he's more than reasonable in dealing with me.

I don't quite follow the whole deal. You're new at school but were doing research before (in private sector perhaps?) That should help you. It sounds like you can cram the hting out reasonalby fast, from what you are saying. Especially since it seems like Wright has a heavier emphasis on courserwork and less on research than typical (say for a science degree at a "research university"). Regardless, you should still have a discussion with this guy about timeline before signing on. And than make sure that you keep having discussions and stick to your plans.

Have you published? Do you have some stuff that is ready to be published. That's all that anybody cares about in the end. I published stuff after having my arguments with my prof, that he didn't want to publish. And it was the smartest thing I did. Even the fookers who act like they don't care about pub count...do care.

	21-01-2003 03:00									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I looked at the requirements page, but it doesn't really tell the story. You need to know from other people how much of a thesis is required. (look at a couple). How much you are expected to publish? How long other grad students typically take? (Ask some.) That is the stuff that matters. Not that coursework stuff. You will jam that out in any program. The place where the get you is on the research side.

One other thing, a bif part of the value of the Ph.D. is in the prestige. I would check with other Ph.D. graduates of Wright (not a well-recognized name) to see how much their Ph.D. was valued. Just want to make sure that the resume bullet is worth the time. I really don't know the answer, but its something to check.

	21-01-2003 03:02									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by GP I don't quite follow the whole deal. You're new at school but were doing research before (in private sector perhaps?)

Sorry I wasn't clear -- my prof gave me my assistantship six weeks ago, but classes didn't start until two weeks ago, so I wound up putting in 80-odd hours worth of research before school technically began.

quote: Have you published? Do you have some stuff that is ready to be published.

I've got a paper I wrote as an undergrad that I presented at a conference, but the thing hasn't been published yet. I'll look into cleaning it up and submitting it ASAP -- it's not very good (which is why I haven't submitted it up until now), but it sounds like that doesn't really matter.

	21-01-2003 03:10									#87
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by GP You need to know from other people how much of a thesis is required.

Not much, I've seen a coupla dissertations and they seemed very much like "copy-and-paste" theses.

On the research end I'm required to put in (more-or-less) 20 hours a week for my assistantship, and that more than satisfies any research requirements they've got with the program (they wink at double-dipping).

quote: I would check with other Ph.D. graduates of Wright (not a well-recognized name) to see how much their Ph.D. was valued.

Yeah, that one I don't know the answer to -- I'll scrounge around for some alums.

	21-01-2003 03:15									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What if you have a seven-letter one-syllable user name? Like "Schlong".

	21-01-2003 03:18									#89
	Put an end to popups!

I'd be tempted to go the synonym route and use ****.

	21-01-2003 03:29									#90
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

[unthreadjack]

Stefu-

What about strength?
[/unthreadjack]

Edit- can't count today it seems.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 21-01-2003 at 03:34