20-01-2003 02:39									#1
	Do we want to try for the Great Library? Support Apolyton

In my opinion, we are a great candidate for a GL boost. We seem to be a very isolated civ compared to most others, and may even be on our own continent - thus isolating us until triremes, and perhaps even till caravels/the Great Lighthouse. We know ND has a contacts collection already; so we are missing out on early tech trading as we speak. Once we finally make contact, it is likely we will be behind in the tech tree; we may find the other teams in the middle ages while we are still trying to figure out Aqueducts and Marketplaces.

On the other hand, this attempt won't be without risk. The GL is a great wonder for anyone, regardless of the situation, so we'll face competition. It's an expensive wonder; the only other Ancient wonder I can think of that has the same cost is The Pyramids - which would also be a nice wonder, but other civs may try for it as well.

So, do we make the attempt? I say yes.

If we plan on doing this, I suggest we choose a city soon (I'd nominate either Jackson or Legopolis) and assign a worker to prep it; we may also want to build a temple there, depending on the real difficulty level we're playing at.

	20-01-2003 03:30									#2
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No , not yet anyway - we would possibly get it 70 to 80 turns from now (assuming about 20 turns to get Literature and 7 to 8 shields per turn)

Let's see first if:

1) Do we have any other civs on our continent? (still sllightly possible in the southeast)

2) Do we have any coastal connections to the eastern continent(s)?

3) Do we find anyone (Vox?) on the western landmass?

If the answer to 2 of these 3 questions turns out to be "NO", then we must make the GL our number 1 priority.

Besides, I think that we need to decide which city is our best wonder city - probably either Legopolis or Jackson -and start mining hills to maximize its shield output (and possibly get a temple built there before beginning to start the wonder).

I would reevaluate this after we get writing though.

	20-01-2003 05:51									#3
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Not yet :
I agree we should start a wonder in Legopolis soon as a placeholder for GL (I really don't want ND to build it, or in fact any other Civ). However, before we can hope to build GL, about 30 turns will pass. We still need to use Legopolis to settle the territory a bit, and we still need to build some infrastructire in Legopolis before it become the industrial powerhouse needed for a wonder (namely, a granary and a temple).
Once Legopolis has granary+temple, and once other cities can settle our territory at a satisfying rate, we should start a wonder in Legopolis.

I agree we should start the Lighthouse in a costal city (Jackson perhaps ?) as soon as we have MapMaking. Great Library can be good to beother our rivals ; Lighthouse is needed for our very survival.

	20-01-2003 05:55									#4
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I voted no, mainly because I think that if we create a strategy that relies heavily on the assumption that we do build the Great Library, and then someone beats us to it, then we will be screwed big time.

For example, from the previous posts it appears that the lack of contacts is used as an argument for building the Great Library. Now imagine that we don't have any contacts and someone beats us to the Great Library. Then what?

I think we are very likely to be able to contact at least one other team using galleys (no triremes in this universe ) throught the narrow channel near the Hammer Peninsula (hope I got the name right). I don't know how much we know about who has contact with whom, but if the general sentiment is that most teams know a lot of the others, then logically we will be able to make contact with many if we can make contact with any one of them. Therefore there is no question in my mind that Map Making should be researched ASAP (in case this was the hidden point of this poll).

Edit: numbers were a bit out of line.Note however that even if we start building a wonder/palace right now, the actual decision of which wonder we want to build comes 40-50 turns later (assuming a wonder that costs 300 shields and depending on the level to which we can beef up the wonder building city). If we want to build a temple in the wonder-city first (I usually do, but it might not be necessary), then that will also take another 10-15 turns.

So instead of deciding right now which wonder we should build, I would suggest that we develop a generic wonder building strategy. This has two main parts: a priority list of wonders and a city designated to build one of them. For example my priority list would look like this right now:

- Great Lighthouse
- Great Library or Pyramids
- Hanging Gardens
- Colossus
- Oracle
- Great Wall

This might change, of course, so maybe we should make a poll repeatedly to see what the community thinks.

And I would probably designate Jackson as a wonder building city and start a temple or a military unit that will ensure happiness ASAP. After that, start the Pyramids (as a placeholder, not necessary as a target). When we have 200 shields, we should check if the Colossus is on top of the priority list by chance. If it is, build it, if not: continue to 300 and repeat the process.

The really tricky part though is to ensure that research doesn't become a bottleneck. E.g. if we have 400 shields, and the Hanging Gardens is on the top, but we don't have Monarchy yet, then we are screwed.

I leave this problem as an exercise to the reader.

Last edited by delmar on 20-01-2003 at 06:14

	20-01-2003 06:09									#5
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Not sure if this is the best thread to discuss these issues, but I wanted to reflect on Spiffor's post the extent of a few points:

1.) Building wonders in two cities at the same time this early in the game is a very brave concept IMHO. If this is a surprise to many, then perhaps we should discuss this issue alone.

2.) Jackson is just about as good a "powerhouse" as Legopolis, if I am not mistaken.

3.) I don't think that we need a granary in the city where we build the wonder. We might not even need a temple. I think 2 units and a luxury should keep 5 people happy. That should bring Jackson to 8 or 9 shields, depending on the level of corruption. I am not sure we would be better off with a temple and an additional 1 or 2 shields (simulation would be useful, tsk, tsk ).

4.) I don't think that starting wonders (specifically the Great Lighthouse) should be strictly bound to the prerequisit tech. I would probably start a Palace (or a temple) in Jackson right away.

	20-01-2003 06:27									#6
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In fact I think that Jackson would be a much better site for wonders than Legopolis for a while anyway because:

- it doesn't have a river - any city that has a river should already have some happiness buildings / wonders or access to plenty of luxury resources to prevent it from going into revolt during the wonder's long build time.
and more grassland shield squares than Legopolis, a decent amount of hills and it is also not centralized like Legopolis.

Legopolis would be better now to alternate between settlers, workers and buildings.

A granary would not necessarily be good for the wonder city due to the rapid population growth - good for shields but bad for unhappiness after a while.

The only concern is that Jackson is currently our only eastern port - we should try to build another eastern port before we use Jackson for wonders - and build a galley for the east at Jackson before that too.

	20-01-2003 07:17									#7
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Good points; I realize I'm thinking a little too far ahead.

On wonder building in general: I lean toward Jackson, if only because it can use the Palace as a shieldholder and Legopolis cannot. (And Jackson can build coastal wonders too.)

	20-01-2003 10:55									#8
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Yes, only not yet.

	20-01-2003 12:28									#9
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I think we should definately go for it, but as others have said, we should delay somewhat to prepare for it. Some infrastructure improvments, etc. What could really be a problem is if someone gets a great leader, because the GL is a pretty prize in any situation.

	20-01-2003 13:59									#10
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I haven't voted and quite honestly, I do not intend to. No is not exactly what I think, neither is yes. As others said, "too early to say" would fit best.

Lots of good points made though, I am afraid I will be just repeating what others said for the most part of my post. So, just to make sure I add my two cents...

1) Yes, as it stands now, the Great Library seems like an extremely viable goal. Not only to help us catch up once we find others, but to allow us to make the best use of our isolation. If we can focus on getting the most important techs ahead of others (getting the rest via the Great Library), we would be as safe as a civ in Civ3 can be. We would really be enjoying a "builder's paradise game".

2) I agree that it is early to make any precise decisions. Even if I am quite certain we will eventually find out we are on a landmass of our own, I would still wait for this to be 100% confirmed. Hopefully, 10-20 turns and we shall know.

3) Considering the enormous amount of lands we can settle with very little or no opposition, devoting two of our most productive cities to wonder building would be not brave, but wrong, IMHO. Our primary goal should be to grab all that wonderful land we have been offered. I believe that we shall have only one city - my choice would be Jackson - building a wonder. Jackson allows all kinds of wonders to be built there (coastal/other... thus easy cascades) plus it has extremely good shield potential - assuming six citizens and a temple (not because of happiness, but to extend the city radius to encompass the hill in the North), it will have the gross shield output of 15 (Tibi, Kloreep, how much is the waste going to be?) even under despotism. That's a lot!

4) even if I do not take that as an "excercise" (), I do agree with what delmar says. It is not that important to set the exact wonder goal right now. However, we shall make the crucial decision: are we going after a wonder? If we are, what is our priority list? My answer would be: yes, right after Jackson spits out the current settler, let us start preparing it for a wonder. Whether it is the Great Library, Great Lighthouse, Pyramids, or another wonder in the end, is not that important right now... What matters is that we have several valuable (to us) wonders worth giving a try, plus a very good position/city to do so.

Plus two more brief comments:
a) the wonder building city does not need a granary (it would be cheaper to add workers from Farmerville, if necessary)
b) Panama will be able to send ships both ways - East and West, so using Jackson to build a wonder should not hamper our naval exploration.

	20-01-2003 14:18									#11
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One point that I'm not sure has come up is that we only get techs that 2 KNOWN civs have. Currently we don't know any and there is no guarantee that our triremes are going to be able to make it to the next landmass.

	20-01-2003 14:30									#12
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 One point that I'm not sure has come up is that we only get techs that 2 KNOWN civs have. Currently we don't know any and there is no guarantee that our triremes are going to be able to make it to the next landmass.

True. Fortunately, we shall know a lot about our naval exploration possibilities by the time we will need to take the final decision (Great Library / Great Lighthouse / something else). In the unlikely case we still can't get anywhere with our galleys, we will have little chance, but go for the Lighthouse...

	20-01-2003 15:26									#13
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I say wait until we have carriers and battleships then rain merry hell on anyone we find

	20-01-2003 19:50									#14
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I been away for the weekend. I am fortunate to be able to read some very wise discussions in this thread. So after soaking in all this knowledge, I have to agree with delmar and vondrack (and others, I'm sure). After Jackson completes it's settler, begin the wonder place holder.

	20-01-2003 20:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops I been away for the weekend. I am fortunate to be able to read some very wise discussions in this thread. So after soaking in all this knowledge, I have to agree with delmar and vondrack (and others, I'm sure). After Jackson completes it's settler, begin the wonder place holder.

I shoud perhaps clarify my previous statement. By "preparing for wonder building" I didn't mean starting the placeholder construction immediately, but stopping any worker/settler production in Jackson and building a temple there, since we will likely need even the hill in the north to make as many shields every turn as possible without getting short of food - Tibi, Kloreep, would one of you look at Jackson waste figures for raw shield outputs up to 15 shields? Thanks.

	20-01-2003 21:17									#16
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Jackson is not next to a river so realistically 6 pop is max right now. And I suspect that 5 would do just as fine, ie. we wouldn't need a temple. Temple costs 60 shields, +1 pop generates +2 shields if we are lucky -> you would need that +1 pop for 30+ turns to bring in the cost of the temple. Plus you would need to improve one more tile and mining the hills is not a pleasure even with industrious workers.

Or did I miss something?

	20-01-2003 21:42									#17
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Yes, the pleasure of building a temple.

	21-01-2003 00:25									#18
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The production of Jackson:
size	production	waste	real output
3	7	1	6
4	9	1	8
5	11	2	9
6	13	2	11

Working at full capacity, the difference between a size 5 and size 6 Jackson is:
- 4 turns for the Collossus
- 6 turns for the Great Lighthouse
- 8 turns for the Great Library

If we build now a temple, then the Lighthouse, it will be ready in ~ 1010 BC (~ 44 turns from now). After that, Jackson would finish the Collossus in 19 turns.

If we start the Lighthouse now (with a placeholder) it will be ready with ~ 5 turns earlier.

Btw, Jackson doesn't need that northern hill. It has a cattle, 3 bonus grasslands and 2 hills to SE (so a total of 6 workable tiles; furthermore, mined hills give 2 shields in despotism, just like mined bonus grasslands).

One more thing: we can fight against the unhappiness caused by the 6th citizen with a second unit in Jackson, instead of building a temple. Or we can build a temple in Legopolis to let its borders expand quicker and then build a road on the closest dye.

formatted by vondrack's SmartFormat 1.0 (previously everyCR_remover 0.99ß) to make Tibi happy

Edited by Tiberius to correct a stupid typo. The table is finally OK, thanks to Radek

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-01-2003 at 03:13

	21-01-2003 00:38									#19
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WTF is wrong with my table ?? Why do I have that huge space before it?

Edited: Now what? Following Kloreep's advice, I eliminated any carriage return from the beginning, and the table is still there. BAH!

Last edited by Tiberius on 21-01-2003 at 00:54

	21-01-2003 00:42									#20
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Hmm... if we only need two garrison units, Jackson could start on a wonder pretty quickly. We could use a warrior (I'm always pushing for those guys ) and a Merc to keep happiness at size six. Jackson could jump right in to the Palace in a matter of turns if we want.
Of course, a temple and/or granary first would be nice; we could skip the warrior with a temple.

Re table: Happens to me, too. I think that while the forum uses the HTML correctly, any carriage returns to make that code more readable counts as a space before the table proper.

	21-01-2003 02:02									#21
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Oops, I had my math wrong... that's what happens when I make no notes and do everything in my mind only. Somehow, I assumed pop 7 (thus, 15 shield output), even though pop 6 is the ceiling for Jackson. Yes, everybody is correct, we do not need a temple in Jackson, two garrison units will do.

So then, let's finish the settler and go for a wonder! But I would suggest using as many prebuilds as possible, to keep others from knowing we've decided to go for a GW (I mean, let's keep building prebuilds that do not show in the F7 screen as long as possible).

	21-01-2003 02:59									#22
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Oh yes, an excellent point. We must use the pre-builds.

	21-01-2003 03:03									#23
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Thanks for the table

Just for the record, I'd still like to start building soon some temples. We are supposed to be a culture powerhouse ... Maybe in Legopolis, to make expand its cultural borders faster, to cover the luxuries.

Btw, interesting is that even though building the temple lasts (if we start it now) ~ 12 turns, the wonder would be ready with only 5 turns earlier, not 12.

More: in my simulation, I've built in Legopolis a granary after the current merc, then a worker, and after that kept building merc+settler pairs (and a temple at some point). It worked quite well.

Also Farmerville is doing fine building only settlers. It grows to 4, builds a settler, grows to 4, builds a settler, etc.

	21-01-2003 06:59									#24
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So what's the conclusion? Will we start a wonder placeholder in Jackson right away? Or we build a settler first (that's something I wouldn't do for sure, but I might be missing something)? Or will we have a poll about this?

Btw, are we sure about this:

quote: One more thing: we can fight against the unhappiness caused by the 6th citizen with a second unit in Jackson, instead of building a temple.

What level are we playing on? I thought that 2 units + 1 luxury will be necessary even with pop 5.

	21-01-2003 07:01									#25
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack But I would suggest using as many prebuilds as possible, to keep others from knowing we've decided to go for a GW (I mean, let's keep building prebuilds that do not show in the F7 screen as long as possible).

Exactly. I had a MP game where I drove crazy the others with this, they thought I had a Great Leader for every wonder...

	21-01-2003 08:15									#26
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I am still not sure that we should start building a wonder immediately. Even after founding Panama next turn we still only have 4 cities. I would wait until we have at least 6 before we even consider starting a wonder. Our main priority IMHO, aside from contacting the other civs, should remain to colonize as much of this continent as fast as possible.

	21-01-2003 10:05									#27
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Then perhaps we should have a poll. I almost created one but I realized that I have no idea how happiness works, so I for one don't have enough information to actually vote on this (mainly whether we should build a temple or not). Anyone has a pointer to a good document (thread) describing this?

In case you think it's trivial, please PM me with an explanation as to why I have 2 happy faces in a pop 5 city, at Monarch level, with 1 type of luxury (2 piece of it), palace+barracks+granary in the city, 0% on entertainment, no entertainers, no military police.

Even though I am apparently clueless on this topic, I thought I would mention that (according to the message that comes up when I open the SAV file) we are playing at Regent level, which IMHO means that the 3rd citizen will be unhappy, ie. my estimate is that a pop 5 city with 2 military police and 1 type of luxury (without temple) will have 1 happy, 3 content and 1 unhappy citizens and would go to disorder if we had a 6th citizen in there without a temple. As we can see from the above example, this is not generally true, so take it with a grain of salt.

	21-01-2003 11:20									#28
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Delmar, did you hear about the "PBEM always on chieftan" bug? The game was started on regent, but it is surely not regent, because at some point there were 3 pops in Legopolis without any unit in it and it wasn't in disorder. So most probably it is the chieftan bug.

	21-01-2003 12:38									#29
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Yep, Tibi is correct, the game is lower than Regent due to the known bug, that is for sure. Although I can't be 100% sure it's Chieftain, I would bet my monthly income on that. We will be able to make sure once any of our cities reach pop 4. Thus, a pop 6 city (wonder-building Jackson) will be 4 contents plus 2 unhappies needing two MPs to become content. We should be able to do even without a luxury.

I would suggest finishing the settler in Jackson first. Sharpe is right that our priority #1 is expansion. Thanks to the Farmerville free settler, we are now on par with ND, I believe, and with Panama, we will take the lead. It is important we maintain the lead as long as we have room to expand to.

However, after finishing the settler in Jackson, I would no longer build any pop-depleting units there, aiming for pop 6 ASAP. I would probably build a Merc prior to starting the wonder prebuild, just to have Jackson take care of itself and not require other cities to help it with garrison units. Until it hits a higher pop, it doesn't matter that much if we start right now or in 10 turns, as the actual time difference in finishing the wonder will be minimal, because of the low shield output in the early turns of building. Besides, I'm quite sure we are the very first team to even consider a wonder that early in the game.

	21-01-2003 13:21									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Besides, I'm quite sure we are the very first team to even consider a wonder that early in the game.

And that pleases me mightily