20-01-2003 09:51									#31
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AS/Asher : I actually think it would be stupid to enforce all laws regardless of the circumstances, simply because there are way too many of them, and not enough personnel to enforce them all (thankfully).
Plus, like many state-ran systems, laws tend to forget an essential part of evolution : plenty get added, but a few get removed in comparison (in France, the Napoleonic law forbidding women to wear trousers has been voided about 10 years ago ; but probably the cops should have enforced it )

	20-01-2003 09:51									#32
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quote: That's not beside the point at all. You, by having illegal music on the computer, are engaging in criminal activity that both parties have not consented to, while the Rolling Stones engaged in "criminal" activity that no one present objected to. Which do you imagine is worse?

Neither. The police not enforcing one while enforcing the other is the problem here. As Asher said, he'd understand if he got raided, since he broke the law. But because they are celebrities, it doesn't matter if they break the law. Why don't they just murder someone. Lord knows no one will care .

	20-01-2003 09:53									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor AS/Asher : I actually think it would be stupid to enforce all laws regardless of the circumstances

Well I think it's stupid not to enforce all laws, on the basis that the perpetrator be a celebrity or something...

If the law was intended to have circumstances, they'd be written into the law...

	20-01-2003 09:53									#34
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Imran, murder is a different case. It's a violent crime that actually hurts someone, and by definition is non-consensual. Smoking on stage during a concert is not violent, does not really hurt anyone, and in any case, if someone objects to it, they can leave. No one will, of course, because the health nazis aren't at the concert to begin with - concerts are horrible for the ears, after all.

	20-01-2003 09:54									#35
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quote: Well I think it's stupid not to enforce all laws, on the basis that the perpetrator be a celebrity or something...

My position has nothing to do with celebrity status.

	20-01-2003 09:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Imran, murder is a different case. It's a violent crime that actually hurts someone, and by definition is non-consensual. Smoking on stage during a concert is not violent, does not really hurt anyone, and in any case, if someone objects to it, they can leave. No one will, of course, because the health nazis aren't at the concert to begin with - concerts are horrible for the ears, after all.

That's not the point at all, Floyd.

The point isn't whether you agree with the law, you disagree with the enforcement of the law because you disagree with it.

It's incredibly stupid.

You disagree with the law, you don't fault the people who want to enforce the laws, you fault the people who pass the laws and try to get it changed. You don't "laugh" at people for enforcing laws...

	20-01-2003 09:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My position has nothing to do with celebrity status.

I wasn't talking to you.

He said there could be circumstances. Celeb status is a very common "circumstance" that stops enforcement of laws, which is something he seemed to be implying -- and if he didn't imply it, he should know that his stance DOES imply it and infact allows it to happen...

	20-01-2003 09:57									#38
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quote: You don't "laugh" at people for enforcing laws...

You do if the enforcement is silly and pointless, and ignores the strong likelihood of other crimes taking place, AND takes the police off the streets where they could be preventing crimes that actually hurt people.

And I'll just refer you back to the marijuana for cancer suffering patients example - do you enforce that law?

	20-01-2003 09:58									#39
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My position has nothing to do with celebrity status.

Same here. My position is that it was completely stupid to waste policemen and some Bloomberg's time for such a minor thing. Actually, I'm quite sure Bloomberg would never have been so nerved if the people on stage had been completely unknown.

	20-01-2003 09:58									#40
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Right on Asher!

This was right in the view of officers. By refusing enforcement of the laws, that reduces the enforcement of laws that you think really matter. Hell, if it is no big deal if they don't enforce the public smoking laws, then why would it be a big deal not to enforce the murder of a leader of organized crime?

Not enforcing the law is not enforcing the law.

	20-01-2003 09:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You do if the enforcement is silly and pointless

The point is to enforce the law.
The law was passed for a reason, whether or not you agree with it, and to fault someone by laughing at them for enforcing the law is ridiculous.

quote: And I'll just refer you back to the marijuana for cancer suffering patients example - do you enforce that law?

It's legal for medicinal use where I live.

	20-01-2003 09:59									#42
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quote: He said there could be circumstances. Celeb status is a very common "circumstance" that stops enforcement of laws, which is something he seemed to be implying -- and if he didn't imply it, he should know that his stance DOES imply it and infact allows it to happen...

Well, on the other hand, we give the government a "special status" when it comes to following laws. Bush, for example, can order someone's death anytime he wants to, and have his approval ratings rise. If I did it, I'd be in for a lengthy stay at a federal pound me in the ass facility. Something to think about

	20-01-2003 10:00									#43
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, on the other hand, we give the government a "special status" when it comes to following laws. Bush, for example, can order someone's death anytime he wants to, and have his approval ratings rise. If I did it, I'd be in for a lengthy stay at a federal pound me in the ass facility. Something to think about

I disagree with Presidential Pardons too...I don't see why you're trying to use this to make a point.

	20-01-2003 10:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I wasn't talking to you. He said there could be circumstances. Celeb status is a very common "circumstance" that stops enforcement of laws, which is something he seemed to be implying -- and if he didn't imply it, he should know that his stance DOES imply it and infact allows it to happen...

No, I was referring to circumstances in a general meaning : whether Mardi Gras in New Orleans, taking pot to relieve pain from cancer, or a drastic societal evolution which outdates a law still present in the code (such as the law forbidding women to wear trousers). More kinds of circumstances can be found as we move on.
And in fact, I really don't care if it applies to celebrities or not : I couldn't care less of the Stones, I don't listen to them

	20-01-2003 10:01									#45
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quote: Hell, if it is no big deal if they don't enforce the public smoking laws, then why would it be a big deal not to enforce the murder of a leader of organized crime?

If a cop has a choice between arresting someone for smoking weed, or chasing someone who just robbed a convenience store, surely you'd tell him to chase down the robber and ignore the pot smoker, right?

Asher,

quote: The law was passed for a reason, whether or not you agree with it, and to fault someone by laughing at them for enforcing the law is ridiculous.

And some laws are passed for silly reasons. Other laws shouldn't be passed at all.

If Congress passed a law mandating, say, forced euthanasia for anyone over 60, should the President and the Justice Department enforce that law?

quote: It's legal for medicinal use where I live.

Not where I live

	20-01-2003 10:02									#46
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quote: I disagree with Presidential Pardons too...

Actually I was talking about his ability to bomb countries

	20-01-2003 10:04									#47
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Your ability to consistently produce nonsensical arguments is amazing, Floyd.

	20-01-2003 10:06									#48
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quote: So, Shi, do you think that the government should go arrest someone sufferring from a painful form of cancer, who is smoking pot to relieve the pain?

Yes, the law should be enforced, no matter what it is.

quote: And some laws are passed for silly reasons. Other laws shouldn't be passed at all.

So? That doesn't mean they shouldn't be enforced. Petition to change the law, but saying laws shouldn't be enforced means the democratic process can be curtailed by a few cops that disagree.

quote: If Congress passed a law mandating, say, forced euthanasia for anyone over 60, should the President and the Justice Department enforce that law?

Yes, because it is the law. If they don't want to enforce the law, they should get some of their people in Congress to change it.

--

Btw, would you also agree with people being able to not enforce the laws for moral reason if drugs became legal and the police departments still busted people for it, because they think it is moral?

	20-01-2003 10:07									#49
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I think I'm going to go to central park and light up just to piss Bloomberg off.

	20-01-2003 10:12									#50
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quote: Yes, the law should be enforced, no matter what it is.

You don't find that to be cruel and unnecessary, WRT the cancer patient? You put him in prison or take away his weed, he's gonna be in a ton of pain. Why not just wink at it, and let the poor guy die in peace?

quote: So? That doesn't mean they shouldn't be enforced.

So, another example - was it OK for the cops to enforce Jim Crow laws, or, to go back a few more years, to enforce slavery?

quote: Yes, because it is the law. If they don't want to enforce the law, they should get some of their people in Congress to change it.

Wrong. That law is clearly unconstitutional, and the President takes an oath to uphold the Constitution. The Supreme Court would clearly rule against Congress, but obviously they couldn't do it immediately. It would be murder for the President to enforce such euthanasia laws, just because Congress says it's OK. I applaud you for trying to be consistent, but I fail to see how you can actually support that.

quote: Btw, would you also agree with people being able to not enforce the laws for moral reason if drugs became legal and the police departments still busted people for it, because they think it is moral?

Are you asking if cops should be able to arrest people for doing drugs, if drugs were legal? No, of course they shouldn't - you can't arrest someone for breaking no crime, even if you feel such a law should be in place. But if the cops did try to arrest someone for it, I'd be in favor of the person in question using a gun to resist arrest, if that level of resistance became necessary.

But this is a totally different example, in any case. My example is about ignoring a law in certain situations, for either humanitarian, moral, or common sense reasons. Your example is about the police making up a law out of the blue and enforcing a non-existent law.

	20-01-2003 10:13									#51
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"pound me in the ass facility" Gotta love Office Space.

I liken this to all of the stupid rules that schools have - ala the no hat policy except on special days. C'mon, how disruptive is a hat? I also remember a time when a guy died his hair a "non-natural" color and got sent home.

Basically the cops decided that instead of being asses about it and wasting thousands of people's money (you know it costs money for a concert, right?) they'd just as well not incite a riot and let them finish the concert.

	20-01-2003 10:13									#52
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MacTBone - that's exactly my point.

	20-01-2003 10:29									#53
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Policemen have discretion when it comes to enforcing the law, at least ones where the infraction is of such a trivial nature. In such instances, one can indeed question the choice of the officers to enforce it. Such is the case with the gay couple arrested and tried (and jailed) for sodomy in Texas a few years ago. While it was indeed the letter of the law that these men should be arrested, the arresting officers could have easily decided, based on the circumstances (they were in the privacy of their own home, no other laws were being broken, etc.) to look the other way, save their resources for serious crimes and not cause the couple so much grief. Their decision to enforce the law to the letter benefitted no one. I certainly fault the officers (partly) in that situation, as I would fault the hypothetical officer busting a cancer patient for smoking marijuana. It's bringing unneccessary suffering on the heads of people who aren't doing anything wrong and aren't hurting anybody else.

The entire point of law enforcement is to make life in society better for people, after all. The law is nothing good unless it is tempered by common sense and compassion in enforcement. That's what makes it justice rather than just a bunch of dry statutes on the books. People who argue for the law to always be enforced to the letter don't know what they're really arguing for, as the result would not be a pleasant society. If you're comfortable with a police force of 1,000,000 Inspector Javerts running around, whoaboy...

	20-01-2003 11:14									#54
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"So, Shi, do you think that the government should go arrest someone sufferring from a painful form of cancer, who is smoking pot to relieve the pain?"

I don't have as much sympathy for celebrities as I do for cancer patients...

"Policemen have discretion when it comes to enforcing the law, at least ones where the infraction is of such a trivial nature"

Not in refusing direct orders from the mayor. The people who decide whether our laws are just or not aren't policeman- they can't just not enforce laws they don't like.

	20-01-2003 11:17									#55
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quote: I don't have as much sympathy for celebrities as I do for cancer patients...

So are you saying we should or should not arrest cancer patients?

quote: Not in refusing direct orders from the mayor. The people who decide whether our laws are just or not aren't policeman- they can't just not enforce laws they don't like.

OK. So your position is that policemen are morally and legally obligated to follow any order from the mayor?

	20-01-2003 11:18									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The people who decide whether our laws are just or not aren't policeman- they can't just not enforce laws they don't like.

Absolutely they can, based on the individual circumstances of the incident. And they should. Otherwise, why not replace policemen with emotionless robots in the future?

Discretion is one of the key components to a policeman's job. Without it, the police would be rendered ineffectual in preventing serious crime. They'd be too busy writing tickets every minute for every little infraction that goes on every day. Do you think NYPD cops would be effective if they spent their day writing tickets to jay walkers, litterbugs, horn blowers, etc. all day?

	20-01-2003 11:23									#57
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"engaging in criminal activity that both parties have not consented to.."

David Floyd

Can a criminal act be justified just because both parties consent to the act?

In other words, are all crimes crimes of non-consent?

	20-01-2003 11:25									#58
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 "engaging in criminal activity that both parties have not consented to.." David Floyd Can a criminal act be justified just because both parties consent to the act? In other words, are all crimes crimes of non-consent?

I can tell you right now, he will say yes. I tend to agree. "Consentual Crime" laws, IMO, are morally indefensible and shouldn't exist in a free society.

	20-01-2003 11:25									#59
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quote: In other words, are all crimes crimes of non-consent?

I think that's a pretty good generalization. If all parties involved consent to the act, or if the act does not hurt anyone, it isn't a crime in my mind.

	20-01-2003 11:32									#60
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DF :
In Germany, a guy was recently killed and eaten by another, and both parties agreed said the inquiry. Do you think the cannibal should be punished or released ? (out of curiosity)