20-01-2003 21:33									#1
	Wonders and Golden Age Increase Your PM Length

Is there any rhyme or reason as to what wonders cause a golden age for a civ?? I know the basics. If one or more wonders combine to represent your civ's 2 specific traits, your civ enters a golden age. So then, here's what I don't understand. I'm playing as Ottomans (Scientific and Industrious)... I capture the Great Wall (Militaristic, Industrious) from the Celts, then I build Sistine Chapel (Religious)... Then, to my sheer disbelief, "Our Civ has entered a Golden Age"

I have Civ specific abilities (and thus unique units) turned OFF (so that's not the problem).

Is there something I'm missing?

	20-01-2003 21:43									#2
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I'm at work right now so I can't check but I did go through the GW's in the editor and there are six GW's for each civ trait in PTW(some wonders correspond to more than one) and five in civ3 (PTW has the Internet which corresponds to all six traits). You can check in the editor which GW's correspond to which traits.

One thought. You say you have civ-specific abilities turned off. Presumably this also removes the civ traits. This could mean that you get a GA for owning any GW and building a second one as they would all count for all civs.

	20-01-2003 21:57									#3
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I'll have to try checking the editor.

	20-01-2003 22:28									#4
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With civ-specifi abilities turned ON the wonder-triggered GA works as follows: each time you build a wonder, the game checks to see whether you control wonders representing both your civ-specific traits. But the game doesn't check your wonder control when you capture wonders. Thus, as Egypt (religious - industrious), you could capture the Pyramids, the Oracle, the Great Wall, the Hanging Gardens, and the Colossus -- the collective ownership of which should trigger a GA for Egypt -- all without triggering a GA. If you actually build a wonder, any wonder, the game will check wonder control and trigger your GA, even if the wonder you build is neither industrious nor religious.

In your case, with civ-specific abilities turned OFF, I believe the wonder-triggered GA works as follows: build a wonder, any wonder, and trigger a GA. [I say "I believe" because I've never played with abilities off, but have seen reports by knowledgeable and credible posters who have reported this state of affairs].

Catt

	21-01-2003 06:50									#5
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Catt, you're perfectly right with your explanation

Another question: some small wonders can also trigger GAs. Will the game check for GA triggering wonders after every small wonder I build...eg: I capture the great wall as the chinese...build Wall Street (that does not trigger GAs for any trait -AFAIK) will I get a GA?

	21-01-2003 06:58									#6
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Of course Catt is correct, you bumbling idiot!

IIRC a small wonder has never caused a GA for me

	21-01-2003 18:39									#7
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Right on the mark once again, Catt.

	22-01-2003 04:08									#8
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quote: IIRC a small wonder has never caused a GA for me

have a look at the editor...my question remains unanswered: does the program check for GA-triggers after every wonder built (Shakespeare if you want another example) or only after wonders that have GA-trigger flags?

	22-01-2003 20:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin Another question: some small wonders can also trigger GAs. Will the game check for GA triggering wonders after every small wonder I build...eg: I capture the great wall as the chinese...build Wall Street (that does not trigger GAs for any trait -AFAIK) will I get a GA?

quote: Originally posted by Mazarin ...my question remains unanswered: does the program check for GA-triggers after every wonder built (Shakespeare if you want another example) or only after wonders that have GA-trigger flags?

I've certainly not tested it, but I am pretty much certain that small wonders can't trigger a GA -- only great wonders. I'm also pretty sure that the game only does a "wonder-GA check" after building a great wonder.

WRT your points about the editor, I think you're confusing the wonder (small and large) "trait identifiers" with a GA trigger. My impression is the only "GA trigger" is hard-coded into the type of improvement - improvement, wonder, sm. wonder. The presence of a flagged trait for a small wonder doesn't imply a GA check -- indeed, most normal improvements have traits flagged as well. Why do small wonders have traits checked? I can only speculate that there was an intended use for the trait flags which was subsequently abandoned or changed during the course of game creation.

Again, though I haven't tested it, I would strongly suspect that building Shakespeare's could trigger a GA (with recently captured wonders) and I would be quite surprised to see a posted saved game where a small wonder triggers a GA.

Catt

	22-01-2003 23:01									#10
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if you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the editor.

I've attached a screenshot of the default settings for the Intelligence Agency (sci+mil)

here you can see all GA-triggers for both, small and great wonders edit: as Catt's remarks proved right after testing, I remove this link

Attachment: intagency.jpg
This has been downloaded 78 time(s).

Last edited by Mazarin on 23-01-2003 at 02:14

	23-01-2003 00:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin if you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the editor.

It's not that I don't believe you; it's that I believe you are mistaken. The short answer is: checked trait flags do not equal GA triggers. For the long answer, keep reading .

Yes, the Intelligence Agency is flagged as "scientific" and "militaristic." But those flags are not GA-triggers -- they are merely flags that place a specified improvement within certain civ traits. Have a look at "Harbor" in the editor -- if memory serves correctly, it will be flagged as "Militaristic" and "Commerical," but that doesn't mean it also may trigger a GA. For that matter, have a look at any number of ordinary improvements (temples, marketplaces, courthouses, etc.) -- the vast majority (if not all) have certain traits checked, but surely you don't believe that this means even the lowliest of improvements can trigger a GA?

The trait flags seem to work for 3 things:

(1) they aid the AI civs in choosing build items in its cities -- for instance, if you look at an AI civ's default settings, you might see "Build Trade Often" flagged for a specific civ. That "build often" flag works together with the trait flags on improvements -- a "build trade often" civ will tend to build those improvements flagged as "commercial" such as marketplaces, harbors, etc. Similarly, an AI civ may be flagged to "build culture often" -- it will tend to prioritize those city improvements flagged as "religious" and "scientific."

(2) they identify those improvements and wonders that can be started while mobilized -- since only "militaristic" improvements can be started when mobilized for war, only those improvements with the "militaristic" trait can be built (surprise, a harbor is "militaristic" and surprise, can be built during mobilization).

(3) for great wonders, they identify civ's which might enjoy a GA upon the building of the great wonder.

I'll repeat my points from my above post since I must not have been very clear the first time:

* I don't know why small wonders are flagged anything other than militaristic (for mobilization purposes only) since it is my experience that all AI civs will build small wonders when they become available, regardess of AI civ traits or small wonder traits. I can only speculate that the flags had some purpose which was subsequently superceded by design changes.

* Trait flags do not equal GA-triggers.

* I believe the GA-trigger effect is hard-coded and is produced by the "improvement / wonder / sm. wonder" option that appears in your screenshoot just below the "rename" and "delete" options next to the improvement drop-down. Unless a particular item is identified as a "wonder" (and not a "sm. wonder"), no GA is possible.

Catt

	23-01-2003 01:26									#12
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Catt, everything you said is in full agreement with what I have observed as well, except for one point:

quote: they aid the AI civs in choosing build items in its cities -- for instance, if you look at an AI civ's default settings, you might see "Build Trade Often" flagged for a specific civ.

From my experience, the categories for the build-often list are formed from the actual abilities of the improvement, not its trait flag. For example, if you have a building that gives happy faces, even if it is not flagged as religious (think colosseum), it is built often by civs with happiness in their build-often list.

Rather than the AI build-often effect, the trait flags for improvements are used to see which buildings are half-price for which civs. To be more precise:

• Militaristic: half-price for militaristic civs, can build when mobilized.
  
• Scientific: half-price for scientific civs
  
• Religious: half-price for religious civs
  
• Commerical: free maintenance with Smith's
  
• Industrious, Expansionist: nothing (there is no improvement with these flags anyway)
  

	23-01-2003 01:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Rather than the AI build-often effect, the trait flags for improvements are used to see which buildings are half-price for which civs. To be more precise: Militaristic: half-price for militaristic civs, can build when mobilized. Scientific: half-price for scientific civs Religious: half-price for religious civs Commerical: free maintenance with Smith's Industrious, Expansionist: nothing (there is no improvement with these flags anyway)

Doh! Completely forgot the most important reason for flags on regular improvements.

Thanks, alexman.

Catt

	23-01-2003 02:13									#14
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Catt, I tested this and you're absolutely correct. Thanks...I really believed small wonders triggered a GA

	23-01-2003 03:23									#15
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Glad it's cleared up!

	23-01-2003 06:14									#16
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Mazarin, it's ok.

Small wonders actually cause more questions than you'd think