21-01-2003 04:13									#1
	Debate: Exchanging a map to GoW Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I call upon the wisest of the Tribe to debate this question and register their voices.

QUESTION: GoW has challanged us to show them our claimed area so that they will, allegedly, stay out of it and also "call our bluff" about the amount of territory we're claiming. They claim that they will, in exchange, send an image of their claimed territory.

They are expecting us to give them a map of all of Spain. We will, however, only send a map of Cow Valley, if anything. This map shall not contain any information about Pamplona other than it's name.

Should we send them this map, or should we proclaim that we will not exchange maps until Mapmaking.

note: We HAVE traded minimaps, and holding fast to this proclaimation will require us to split a few hairs.

Please debate this and let your voice be heard.

--Togas

	21-01-2003 04:44									#2
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So the thing is that the Minimap trade was agreed on my everybody, except Vox. And that was because (so they say) that no one had mapmaking. We had basically done those map trades, to met much quicker.

This trade, even for a small portion of the map, is going beyond that.

After we have Map making, we can send them what ever maps that they want (within reason). We will be happy to send them a map, with all of our Geographic Names applied to them. But not before.

Eta Tamali

	21-01-2003 05:07									#3
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I'm all for just telling them that they have already passed through our claim, and if they want to stay out of it, they might as well disband their warrior now

Here is an idea. We give them a map containing only the info we believe their warrior would have had already, the rest being blacked out, and super-impose an outline over the black fog that designates the border of our territorial claim... and maybe an outline that represents a scouting perimeter that they should stay beyond to keep from revealing it.

We would have to make sure they were aware of what we were sending beforehand in order to prevent any belly-aching about it after the fact.

What we could get in return for this is debatable. We wouldn't be showing them anything new. As far as I'm concerned they can have it for free, if they actually intend to honor the claim and stay out.

	21-01-2003 05:33									#4
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And we could send that that little map, and they they go and edplore the sections that aren't on it, saving themselves time to explore.

Eta Tamali

	21-01-2003 10:16									#5
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If we trade maps with GoW now before Mapmaking, then we have to trade maps with everyone to be fair, unless we are doing this because we fear GoW so much that we have to keep them happy.

The idea seems to be that we give GoW the early map and then they will be happy and keep their promises and go home. What is to stop them from taking the bribe of the map and then continuing on their merry way exploring southwards? Are we to bribe them with another map of south of the Valley of the Cows? Does anyone else think that far from whetting their appetite, it would make them more curious than ever? “Why,” they will think, “are they so eager to give us a map? They must have something big to hide if they want to give us a good map now!”

Because we haven’t settled the land, the only way to stop GoW from going through what is still in reality empty land is to kill their warriors and declare war. I don’t agree with that either; it’s far too early and we don’t have any iron yet. We would have to concentrate all our production on warriors and archers, which would distract us from producing settlers and then we would really lose the land because someone else would be able to sneak through and steal the choice sites.

Yes, we have claimed all the land, but as we lack the power to make our claims a reality we need to swallow our pride and endure what can’t be cured. I favour accompanying the GoW warriors myself as a form of harrassment.

We need to have a good hard look at our settlement plan, proritize the cities, and concentrate on getting those vitally important cities settled. 18 cities is fine as a dream, but I don’t think we should plan on making it a reality.

	21-01-2003 10:21									#6
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Hooray! I made Prince with the last post!

	22-01-2003 02:03									#7
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I don't trust GoW, and I wouldn't do anything to make their life easier.

In a general matter, of course, trading jpegs could seem pretty good. But, thinking better, it would give to other teams vital informations and allow them to make early plans which could damage our expansion or even cause wars.

If we keep the idea of only trading when Map Making arrives, i think we allow the game to remain balanced.

In addition, trading maps before Map Making would result in a lack of interest of this vital technologie, reducing fun...

	22-01-2003 02:13									#8
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If you feel we shouldn't give our jpg map to GoW, can anyone suggest a way to tell them that? They want proof that we do indeed have territory below them, and I don't see how we can expect them to stop based on our word on the matter.

Please don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying we should give our jpg to them (I'm undecdied personally.) What I am saying is that I'm having a LOT of trouble seeing a way for us to deny them it and also to keep em out of our territory, or even a way to phrase the message denying it to them without causing an incident. Any suggestions?

-- adaMada

	22-01-2003 02:29									#9
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The minimap tradinG was reluctantly accepted by some teams. You can tell GoW the truth : we will not consider giving jpeg maps before it is declared an acceptable practice by all teams.
And you can add that they are free to ask for this agreement.

(If they get it, we will start considering their request.)

	22-01-2003 02:40									#10
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Just let them know that we won't trade maps until after mapmaking. Sorry. Say it's an excellent idea but the team does not trust GoW and thinks that they will use the map's information to hurt our country.

Them having two warriors on the outskirts of our territory hasn't helped matters. Them then demanding that we hand over a map of our territory has only made us more suspicious of them.

Remind them, again, just WHO THEY ARE, and how you constantly have to try to convince the team that GoW can be trusted, and that GoW is worth our friendship and our time. In the past you've been successful because Togas was getting along with Ghengis, but now that Togas and Ghengis are mad at each other, there's NO ONE on this team who will stick up for GoW other than you (adaMada).

Commiserate with them a bit. See if you can't get them to feel sorry for the aweful situation you've been put in. Ask them what they would do in your shoes. Ask them to try to help fix things between our nations instead of just accusing us of lieing to them and demanding maps from us. Make it perfectly clear that no one on the RP team is going to give into threats and bullying. Tell them just how much damage this whole things has done to how our team feels about them.

--Togas

	22-01-2003 03:39									#11
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FU-K GoW. FU-K their map.

Demand they get the hell out of dodge or we shall consider them in violation of the peace treaty that we agreed to (which we shall scream bloody murder to all the other teams about as well) and expell the SOB's.

I am sick of their harasment. Lets harass them some.

	22-01-2003 03:56									#12
	Put an end to popups!

This looks more like street fighing than diplomacy.

Anyway ada, you can put that in a diplomatic form, saying everything, but in such a way that we dont look paramoid if this message were communicated to other parties.

	22-01-2003 04:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Togas but now that Togas and Ghengis are mad at each other, there's NO ONE on this team who will stick up for GoW other than you (adaMada).

Do something for me and mention, "oh yeah, and Arnelos... which is somewhat strange"

It will fit in better with the little e-mail I fired away at GhengisFarb recently (which I let Togas know about).

My status toward GoW can be described as "lukewarm" pretty fairly... I don't trust them, but I see the benefit of a strategic partnership with them if they're just willing to be reasonable...

	22-01-2003 08:41									#14
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I also feel that GoW could prove useful but there is no way I can support trading them our map.

If they are as cramped as we are led to believe then a view of all our open land is the same as declaring a "Gold Rush!" and watching them scramble to claim our land.