21-01-2003 04:47									#1
	Help with Science Victory in the Apolyton Pack Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

For the moment, the Apolyton Pack is the only mod I am playing CtP2 with. I have noticed reaching the Science victory (which is the way of winning the game I like the most) was now very difficult, if not impossible within a 2200 AD time limit.

I was about to question my way of playing (that which I should do anyway) and start a new game with the intent to carefully analyze what I am doing in order to correct my mistakes and reach the said Science victory when I read a post from Martin in the Good Possibilities thread.

Martin stated he couldn't himself reach the Science victory with the Apolyton Pack. I then decided to have a closer look at all the APOL text files and to compare them with the original game text files in order to spot the elements that are modifying the science rate and thus a great part of the game's pace.

This is how I discovered most of the advances' costs are multiplied by a factor between 2 to 6 when you compare them with the original datas. I thought these factors had been designed to balance other elements that were increasing the Science rate. I looked at the other text files and found no significant elements (to the exception of some terrains higher science output and datas helping the AI in the APOL_DiffDB.txt file) indicating it was indeed the case.

I thus concluded the best way to restore the science victory was to lower the science cost of the multiplied Advances.

I have thought about two methods (I am sure anybody can find more) that can preserve the gradual science cost increase:

1 - New Advance Cost = Original Game Cost + {(APOL Cost - Original Game Cost)/2}

Factor 2 becomes 1.5
Factor 3 becomes 2
Factor 4 becomes 2.5
Factor 5 becomes 3
Factor 6 becomes 3.5


2 - New Advance Cost = Original Game Cost + (APOL Cost/2)

Factor 2 is unchanged
Factor 3 becomes 2.5
Factor 4 becomes 3
Factor 5 becomes 3.5
Factor 6 becomes 4


The first method is introducing the most radical changes and is perhaps unbalanced in a way I have some troubles to assess.
The second method is perhaps not introducing enough changes to have the desired effect.

I would like to know what the modders with their deeper knowledge of the inner workings of CtP2 and the Apolyton Pack are thinking about this as I can have easily overlooked a few things.

	22-01-2003 02:04									#2
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I already decreased the science costs in GoodMod a little bit but I think not to drastic feel free to compare the costs of GoodMod with the ones of ApolytonPack.

-Martin

	22-01-2003 05:14									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann I already decreased the science costs in GoodMod a little bit but I think not to drastic feel free to compare the costs of GoodMod with the ones of ApolytonPack. -Martin

Thanks for your answer Martin, I will compare your Science costs with the APOL_Advance.txt costs.

	22-01-2003 05:49									#4
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I'm probably not a good person to comment on this as I've never tried for a Science victory (I'm an out and out warmonger) but for what it's worth I think that some of the advance costs for those late advances that you need to do it are way too high.

Increasing the advance costs slows the game down so that you have more turns to fight battles in (which is great for me) but it must make the achievement of a science victory in the allotted time almost impossible.

I think this is one of the problems with having multiple victory conditions in the game: it just makes it very difficult to balance everything out.

	22-01-2003 07:43									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs I'm probably not a good person to comment on this as I've never tried for a Science victory (I'm an out and out warmonger) but for what it's worth I think that some of the advance costs for those late advances that you need to do it are way too high.

This is what I have understood when I compared the APOL_Advance.txt with the Advance.txt of the original game.

quote: Increasing the advance costs slows the game down so that you have more turns to fight battles in (which is great for me) but it must make the achievement of a science victory in the allotted time almost impossible.

I think the flow of the game is somehow disrupted when you suddenly need between 15 to 20 turns to discover an advance in the later part of the game. The endgame is a bit boring because you have to wait for too many turns before registering any progress. I am certainly not against a military victory but I really prefer the peaceful way as far as I am concerned.

I have thus reduced the Science costs of the Advances though they remain really higher than those of the original game.

quote: I think this is one of the problems with having multiple victory conditions in the game: it just makes it very difficult to balance everything out.

This is the reason why I am interested in any advice because I don't want to unbalance the game.

Thanks for your answer.

	22-01-2003 14:48									#6
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I think activison got it about right my self.

The problem with any civ game is history. In this world there were no high technology researching civs And the dark ages did not help putting us back about 300 years.

	22-01-2003 15:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc I think activison got it about right my self. The problem with any civ game is history. In this world there were no high technology researching civs And the dark ages did not help putting us back about 300 years.

I also think Activision has well balanced the tech costs in the original game but you ended the game in 1300AD with the Gaia Controller. I think one of Dale's goals was to give a more historical feeling to CtP2 and he increased the Advances' Science Cost in order for the player to reach our current technology less more or less around the 20th century.

The problem is that the future techs are almost out of reach in the 2200 AD time limit, and (as far as I am concerned) that the late game is becoming a bit boring as the pace is too low.

	22-01-2003 17:57									#8
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Martin, I have had a look at the GM_APOL_Advance.txt and I have noticed you have mostly replaced the APOL costs with the difference between the Apolyton Costs and the Original Game Costs. :b

Your values are still higher than mine and are closer to the second method I have proposed. I have some trouble to evaluate the effect on the game as the changes do not seem very important.

Can you reach the science victory with these new values?

If yes, around which date are you achieving the science victory?

Is the flow of the game significantly smoother with these values?

P.S: sorry to bother you with my questions Martin...

	22-01-2003 23:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Martin, I have had a look at the GM_APOL_Advance.txt and I have noticed you have mostly replaced the APOL costs with the difference between the Apolyton Costs and the Original Game Costs. :b

Actual I lowered the multiplyer of advance costs Dale used by one for most advances. Actual these values are still experimental. And maybe it would be better to use some kind of Mathematical function to raise the costs of the later advances higher then the earlier advances. So that you won't have the hard steps between the advances of the original ancient techs and original Renessance techs and of course between all the other origianal game ages.

So far I wasn't able to play a game and test when I could reach the Gaja Victory. I also set the end year back to 2300 so that you have more time for the Gaja victory.

Another problem is that you have on gigantic maps more cities that generate more science so that you should researh faster on gigantic maps.

-Martin

	23-01-2003 05:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Actual I lowered the multiplyer of advance costs Dale used by one for most advances. Actual these values are still experimental. And maybe it would be better to use some kind of Mathematical function to raise the costs of the later advances higher then the earlier advances. So that you won't have the hard steps between the advances of the original ancient techs and original Renessance techs and of course between all the other original game ages.

My first idea was also to lower the multiplier by one but I thought the increase would be more progressive with the two methods I have detailed in my first post.

I also choosed the first method as it is the one which is introducing the most important changes and would allow to spot more easily the influence on the overall game. I have computed that simply reducing the multiplier by one would only substract 2 or 3 turns to the number of turns needed for a discovery in the later part of the game. I thus felt a more significant change was needed. I will test the Apolyton game with the costs reduced using the first method and with a time limit increased to 2300 AD. If the advances are earned too early or too quickly I will test the second method and if the flow of the game is once again too fast I will use the values included in your mod.

I just have to find the time to play the games.

quote: So far I wasn't able to play a game and test when I could reach the Gaja Victory. I also set the end year back to 2300 so that you have more time for the Gaja victory.

As I wrote it earlier I have increased the time limit to 2300 AD.

quote: Another problem is that you have on gigantic maps more cities that generate more science so that you should researh faster on gigantic maps.

This is a problem I have overlooked as I am almost always playing on a large map (I don't know if this map size is called like this in the english version, it is the next level after standard) with 8 civs. I will also have to test the game on a Giant map.