21-01-2003 07:57									#1
	Archers, what are with these things? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I just got the game, and am wondering how in the world you are supposed to counter archers in the early game? They consistently take out any other unit , attacking or defending. Not even fortified spearmen in cities seem to be able to kill them.

Is there any option other than just creating nothing but archers?

	21-01-2003 08:30									#2
	Re: Archers, what are with these things? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Neekirul I just got the game, and am wondering how in the world you are supposed to counter archers in the early game? They consistently take out any other unit , attacking or defending. Not even fortified spearmen in cities seem to be able to kill them. Is there any option other than just creating nothing but archers?

Are you starting the wars? Most of the time, the AI won't declare war as long as they are still expanding.

In any case, Horsemen are effective against Archers.

	21-01-2003 08:39									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

All archer Armies are pretty lethal in the early game. Theyre especially useful for taking bites out of an enemy stack besieging a city.

	21-01-2003 09:29									#4
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I tried horsemen, they got butchered. Didn't even do 2/3rds damage.

I was pretty much forced to start the war, the AI pretty much cut me me off on a tiny strip of land.

	21-01-2003 10:04									#5
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Those weren't bowmen instead of normal archers, were they?

Make use of their bad defensive value..even warriors can do the trick here

	21-01-2003 10:13									#6
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Nope, these were the run of the mill archer.

	21-01-2003 10:29									#7
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Are you playing Civ2?

	21-01-2003 10:34									#8
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archers are easy.

but you are going to have to learn strategy.

namely if you are using horsemans stage them on hills mountains with spearman defendind the stack. Then you attack archers out in the open (not on mountains or hills).

This can be diffucult to explain. But try to learn the defensive value of terrain and use it to your advantage. DO NOT let the enemy ai creep up to your cities and perch themselves on a hill right next to your city. You will be in a world of hurt if you do that. The key is too knock out their armies before they approach your cities. And knock them down in flat terrain when at all possible. And if you can get Iron working and connect to that resource, then you could use swordsment to knock out any straggler archers in tough terrain.

	21-01-2003 10:38									#9
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Are they veteran/elite archers vs. regular units?

The experience level makes a huge difference. Military + barracks civ turning out archers will crush ordinary spearmen/horsemen.

	21-01-2003 11:02									#10
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I'd rather have reg horsemen then elite archers. (unless there is absolutely no way avoiding the battle to take place in mountain tiles)

	21-01-2003 13:43									#11
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Build lots of archers yourself, and try to make it so you never move next to an enemy archer, instead make them move next to you. Then you have the advantage.

Or, build a big stack of archers (10ish is good for early game) with 2 spearmen. Now go and do to them what they are doing to you. AND BUILD THOSE BARRACKS !

Or, set "archer traps" with a worker. The AI will always take an undefanded worker, and in doing so will leave units in vunerable (sp?) positions. I'm sure you can think how to use this one.

If used properly archers can win the game (i.e. put you so far ahead that you are coasting for the rest of the game) for you. IF used properly...

Wishing you much archer fun.
-Jam

	21-01-2003 15:06									#12
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I never really use Archers in my games, I either go for horsemen or swordsman.

So long...

	21-01-2003 15:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer I never really use Archers in my games, I either go for horsemen or swordsman.

The advantage that archers have over the above two units are´:

1.) No resources needed.
2.) You can build them sooner.
3.) You can build more of them quicker.
4.) YOU CAN BUILD THEM SOONER !

If you can attack with archers against warriors, you have better chances than with swords v.s. spears. And archers upgrade to longbows, probably the most cost-effective unit in the game.

I'm gonna get flamed now..

-jam

	21-01-2003 17:30									#14
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Oh, I know that there are advantages but I still do not use them. On the other hand, I love marines although they have a lot of disadvantages and are expensive. It may be unreasonable but I still prefer some units over others.

So long...

	21-01-2003 17:49									#15
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Sure, marines are cool, but for me they are one of the "fun" units that make Civ so replayable. However I find archers are one of the _essential_ units. I couldn't imagine playing without my early archer rush to get some cities and tech. But perhaps you prefer to wait and hit them with the horsies ?

-Jam

	21-01-2003 18:03									#16
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Yup, I am a late starter. I like to build things first but in a game I played a couple months ago I did an archer rush and I did a lot of damage. I liked that too and I guess doing some damage in the beginning is essential in higher difficulty levels but I still prefer the slow way !

So long...

	21-01-2003 18:07									#17
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Just for my interest, what level are you playing on "normally" Pioneer ?

-Jam

	21-01-2003 19:52									#18
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Fortified Spearmen have an advantage against Archers while defending. Although Archers attack @ 2 and Spearmen defend @ 2, the Spearmen will get any terrain and city advantages provided they are defending. Sometimes the AI will get so freaking lucky though. Just put Spearmen on hills, mountains, forests, and in your cities and fortify. Then after you kill their Archers, you can gradually move the Spearmen into the AI city territories pillaging everything in site.

	21-01-2003 19:56									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

And then the AI attacks with 10000 Archers? I think the original problem needs a more pro-active solution. The best way to kill archers is to attack them. Every unit is equal or better than the Archer's very poor defence of 1 Get them before they can use their strengths against you. (Cheapness, high attack in v. early game etc)

-Jam

	21-01-2003 20:02									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Correct if you get attacked by them you should attack them and enjoy the massacre because they can't defend. On the other side if you go out with them for an attack I would advise you to have a couple of defensive units in the stack.

@WoA I usually play in Regent. I havn't really tried any higher levels.

So long...

	21-01-2003 21:06									#21
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There are several defenses against archers.

1) Spearmen or better fortified behind city walls. I have noticed on occassion that this defense will fail regardless of how good your defensive unit is.

2) Attack the archer with anything that you have, including the kitchen sink. The archers defense is so poor that it would probably hit with its first retaliation, but will not do well afterwards. Jagwar warrior or mounted units are best here. If the archer does get lucky and you have not used up all your movements, then you will be able to retreat and fight another day. Plus, the archer will probably be so weak at this point that you may be able to take it out with spearman.

3) Catapults. Units not inside a city are succeptable to bombardment attacks. Weaken the archer and then take it out with a spearman. If you do not have more than one spearman at the location, then take your chance against a wounded archer. The AI seems reluctant to attack with damaged units. If it does, then your odds should be better at surviving the attack, because your Catapult will get a defensive bombardment in and then your unit will get to defend.

Whether one gets the most bang for their buck with the archer is debatable, but it can not be argued that one gets a big bang, becuase of the upgrade path. IMHO I feel the best bang is the catapult, becuase of its upgrade path and its abaility to do damage to cities, units and terrain. I have said it before, and I will say it again, "Civ is about advantages and disadvantages." Anything that takes my opponents advantages away is an advantage to me. I don't need to conquer them on the battle field, I just need them to not to conquer me. Eventually, I will be able to deal with their units.

	21-01-2003 21:56									#22
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The problem is that these things are taking out spearmen fortified in cities with a near 100% success rate.

	21-01-2003 22:02									#23
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True, they only get their special defense bonus agains tanks..

You have either been lucky or unlucky, but the ods are with the spearman.

	21-01-2003 23:58									#24
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Yup, I usually attack the archers before they reach my city. They do have a poor defense. Get your swordboys on them as soon as you see them.

	22-01-2003 01:11									#25
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Neekirul,

The behavior you are experiencing is not normal. Let's start there. Have you installed the 1.29f patch? I don't think this will do much for you, because I do not recall anyone posting anything in regards to the unfairness of archers in the past.

Next, try playing the game on cheiftan level. You should be able to out produce the AI easily and verify the problem. You may even want to go into the editor and create a generic scenario, were you can test things easily.

When attacking or defending, I have noticed that archers a fairly good at getting the first hit in, but after that they do very poorly at defending and very good at attacking. Just something to note.

One other thing that just came to mind. Does the archer seem to have a large number of hit points? Is there another guy that seems to be following this archer around? I am curious to know if you are actually fighting an army of units, rather than just an individual archer. An army would be more difficult to take out and should always win against your single fortified spearman.

	22-01-2003 01:37									#26
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Its certaintly not an army. The thing is, it keeps happening.

I just had a regular archer take down a veteran fortified spearman in a city. The archer was on a grasslands square, and only took 1/3rd damage.

	22-01-2003 01:43									#27
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Also, I've been using the Play The World executable.

	22-01-2003 06:07									#28
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Can you post a SAV?

	22-01-2003 06:50									#29
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note: even though the archer's defense is only 1 sometimes the ai is lucky.

I would not attack them on mountain squares with horseman. you will probably lose.

see my above post to find out how to take out archers with horseman.

	22-01-2003 06:52									#30
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I once had a problem playing the romans with the ai horseman taking out my vet spearman fortified in a city behind city walls. I was mighty pissed let me tell you.

One thing I notice is that when it rains it pours. If you have multiple civs against you or the enemy ai has a larger army than you they seem to do better. Don't ask me why, but it seems to be true. I tend to lose battles I shouldn't lose.

How to correct this problem? Well always maintain a larger army than the ai and don't take on more than 2 at a time. I have found when I do this I nearly always when battles I should win.