21-01-2003 08:20									#1
	Exchange Map Proposal Accepted!!! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I tried the other way around sin there is a difference on sending a proposal in some order. Because amazinggly the second proposal is considered complemetary by the AI.

This may even thought to be a feature but for me it is clearly a bug! I never felt so ashamed of CTP2

Anyway here is the result of the diplomatic negotiations

Attachment: mapaccepted.jpg
This has been downloaded 145 time(s).

	21-01-2003 08:21									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

And here is the map we have gotten.

Attachment: austrianmap.jpg
This has been downloaded 145 time(s).

	21-01-2003 08:28									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The Austrians have 6 cities at total + 1 settler:

Praha - Size 1 (Is rioting)
Salzburg - Size 1 (Is rioting) - Collecting coffee
Wien - Size 2 (Probably the capital) - Collecting Uranium
Linz - Size 1 - Collecting coffee
Graz - size 1 (The one close to our second warrior)
Innsbruck - size 1 (The one next to our first warrior

And we can see 2 huts

	21-01-2003 08:49									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thats... alot of hills.

If they didnt have that long river we would be safe to attack Innsbruck now, but they could move alot of units along that quickly from Graz and Vienna and possibly sneak units from Linz.

	21-01-2003 12:29									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Hmmm, six is a lot.

	21-01-2003 12:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

On the up side once we take out innsbruck and Graz we should be in good shape and we'll have the most productive part of their empire. The rest is in hills and will grow slowly.

	21-01-2003 13:02									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We can take Innsbruck without resistance but Graz may well be defended by Hoplites and/or Archers (they obviously rush-bought Settlers, so who knows what else they rush-bought?), so attacking Graz (or any other city) with only two Warriors is probably suicide. We need Archers before we attack them...

	21-01-2003 13:43									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: We need Archers before we attack them...

We can do it with a lot more Warriors! Innsbruck would be fairly easy to take and Graz will probably on have a Hoplite at best or Hoplite / Archer at worst.

If we build Warrior's now we could have two cities extra before long rather than waiting 60 odd turns for the ability to build Archers...

	21-01-2003 14:28									#9
	Tired of ads?

In other games on this mod, I've seen cities that had 3 Hoplites + 2 Archers this early on, so Hoplite / Archer is not the worst case scenario...

If we attack now we'll destroy 1 city and maybe (but probably not) take 1 other. If we build our own city we'll be certain that we have 2 cities and we'll invent Ballistics shortly after founding the 2nd city (the 2nd city is ~20 turns away and it will more than double our science rate, while city growth in our capital will bump up science with ~50%, so it should only be 10-20 turns to invent Ballistics after that, time which we need anyway to build more Warriors).

	21-01-2003 15:30									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Unfortunately we need 2 turns reach Innsbruck, same goes for Graz. Now in that time they can rushbuy a hoplite and one of our warriors won't stand a chance!
Therefore in order to decide on an attack we must make up our mind if we're going to use the move-cursor trick to see if there's a unit in the city... while I don't like the idea of taking advantage of a bug it seems pretty clear to me that the AI knows about city troops in the game - so why shouldn't we use it?

	21-01-2003 15:47									#11
	Remove this text

we shouldn't go to war now.

but when having a look at the map, it might be a fine plan for a later war just to let graz and insbruck be where they are and hurry along the river directly against wien. if once the capital was taken, they will have trouble keeping their folks calm. insbruck and graz will be cut off from their empire (maybe even revolt? can we have extra nations in our setup?) and wien could be fairly easy defendend against those slow reinforcements crawling over the hills from salzburg or prag.

	21-01-2003 16:17									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: In other games on this mod, I've seen cities that had 3 Hoplites + 2 Archers this early on, so Hoplite / Archer is not the worst case scenario...

But these cities have only recently been built and recently built cities at this stage tend to be less well defended like I said (and tend to stay like that for quite a while early on). You tend to only find 2+ Hops and 1+ Archers in the first 2 / 3 cities founded.

I did some SAP testing earlier this week.

We shouldn't go to war now though. I'd say we want to look to attack with about 5 / 6 Warriors maybe

	21-01-2003 20:52									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

slaughter Innesbruck

	22-01-2003 05:16									#14
	Remove this text

We need to build the second city, and get ballistics. This will not only give us a stronger stance, but will also allow the Austrian cities time to grow. It's very likely that we would destroy their cities, rather than take control of them if we attack to quickly. Give it time grasshopper...

This is kind of like the old story about the two bulls on the hill overlooking a bunch of cows... The younger bull says to the older "hey let's run down the hill and f%$K one of those cows", The older one says to the younger "no lets walk down the hill and f%$k them all"

	22-01-2003 05:40									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

now we can start the slaughtering