21-01-2003 11:31									#61
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quote: So yes, this is inconcievable.

But not functionally impossible.

By the same token, if Iraq owned nukes, it would not be functionally impossible for them to use those weapons against the US offensively. However (assuming the US wasn't attacking them), it is inconceivable that they would use them against us.

	21-01-2003 11:32									#62
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Looks like we're going to have to rely on the Euros to make this thread interesting.

	21-01-2003 11:35									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Looks like we're going to have to rely on the Euros to make this thread interesting.

I can not wait. DF seems to be ignoring me now anyway.

	21-01-2003 11:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Boredom.

same here

	21-01-2003 11:38									#65
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DD,

Sorry.

quote: Why don't you start with explaining why percieved hypocrisy is relevent and go from there?

If the US is being hypocritical or inconsistent, they lose credibility. Same as anyone else does. It seems pretty self-explanatory.

	21-01-2003 11:40									#66
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Excellent. The Euros don't like Duyba's thinly veiled excuse to perform a "regime change," which is a violation of international laws.

A lot of US people don't like it, either.

	21-01-2003 11:47									#67
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Why do you guys even listen to Floyd? He's on the short list of people who should be ignored because of their sheer idiocy...

On-topic, what do you think this will do to relations between the US and France? They'll probably end up in the doghouse with the Germans, but is the US going to do more than that? Are we going to see some revenge in the near future?

	21-01-2003 11:57									#68
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This thread has been Floyded.

To help bring this thread back on topic, I think this could well make a war being averted more likely. Polls show that both at home and abroad a war on Iraq is a lot less popular. That means it will be much harder to get international support as well as making it politicaly feasible at home. Polls show support for a war at 26% in the USA with no UN approval and no WMDs found. So unless Hans Blix actually finds any WMDs which I would consider unlikely, I think war will be averted.

Drake: France and the US have been unfriendly for awhile, haven't they? It may well work to flare up Franco/American rivalry however.

	21-01-2003 11:57									#69
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Drake: I don't think the French administration is worth the trouble of revenge. We haven't taken revenge on the German administration either, other than to ignore them.

	21-01-2003 11:58									#70
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quote: This thread has been Floyded.

Oh, OK, I'll restrain myself for the rest of the thread.

	21-01-2003 12:09									#71
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It will be interesting to hear what France and Germany say once the SC starts talking about NK.

	21-01-2003 12:14									#72
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quote: Drake: I don't think the French administration is worth the trouble of revenge. We haven't taken revenge on the German administration either, other than to ignore them.

Maybe it's time for another trade war...

Seriously though, I agree. Neither France nor Germany is worth our time. It's better to just let them fade into international irelevance, if that's what they really want.

	21-01-2003 12:20									#73
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Let's insist that France, before she does anything else in Ivory Coast, get explicit U.N. approval for every move subsequent to this date in history.

Gatekeeper

	21-01-2003 12:23									#74
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It's time for a global alliance to stop American agression!

	21-01-2003 12:37									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's time for a global alliance to stop American agression!

Bring it

	21-01-2003 14:02									#76
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire How is it NOT hypocritical for a nation with thousands of nuclear weapons and hundreds of ICBMs, that also happens to be the only nation ever to use atomic/nuclear weapons to murder civilians, to tell a little pissant desert nation 6000 miles away they can't have a few chemical or nuclear warheads? Screw it, you win DF, jack successful. Let's play the good old analogy game. Flies over some people's heads, but whatever. Let's say I have a 5-year old son. My grandfather once shot a man with his gun (under questionable circumstances; let's say I believe it was justified, but others might not). Now I happen to own quite a few guns, more than grandaddy ever had. Is it hypocritical for me to not allow my 5-year old have a gun and bring it to his preschool? I can't see how the quanity of guns I own right now (or nukes a nation might possess) has a thing to do with the responsibility that another might use it with. Also, what does what a country did in the past- when it was functionally a different country- have to do with anything? Would you say it's hypocritical for an Italian to preach peace and David Floydism, because the Roman Empire once ruled the Mediterranean with an iron fist?

Just for the sake of argument, do you understand the Non Proliferation Treaty?

	21-01-2003 14:13									#77
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Judging from the yankee talk in this thread, America's penis enlargement industry has lots and lots of potential business....

Seriously though, what is Bush waiting for ? Attack Iraq now, without UN resolution, you goddamn chicken ****!

	21-01-2003 14:15									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's time for a global alliance to stop American agression!

What now, Che, are you and your fellow travelers uniting with the dictators of the world to attack the US? Are you too advocating that Iraqi and NK soldiers kill your fellow citizens, friends and neighbors by the thousands?

It is f*cking unbelievable the lengths people will go to protect Saddam Hussein.

The French must be utterly condemned. Ditto the Germans.

	21-01-2003 14:26									#79
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quote: Judging from the yankee talk in this thread, America's penis enlargement industry has lots and lots of potential business....

We need bigger penises to compensate for our gigantic balls. Alas, that's a problem Europeans haven't had to worry about for some time now...

	21-01-2003 14:44									#80
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Why are you playing handmelon, then ?

	21-01-2003 16:01									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It is f*cking unbelievable the lengths people will go to protect Saddam Hussein. The French must be utterly condemned. Ditto the Germans.

Protecting Saddam? Now that strawman is even bigger than Dubya's ego.

	21-01-2003 16:02									#82
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Ned: Er, I think so. What are you getting at?

DF: I'l make this quick, but I see your point now. Yes, if the USA's stance was "nuclear weapons are eeeeeeevil and should be abolished- starting with you, Saddam" it would be hypocritical. However, we're simply saying that it's bad if more people had them- especially irresponsible leaders like Saddam. Bad mouth the US all you want, we don't torture/starve/etc. our citizens.

Here's another analogy you're going to take too sweepingly and miss the point of: in a minarchist Floydist system, perhaps one person is mayor and has power in Floydsville. But being a good Floydist, he isn't in favor of creating 1,000 other municipal government positions that have power- and even if he was, he certainly wouldn't want to appoint that crazy commie chegitz to one of them. Is he being hypocritical? Hey, he has power, but he's telling chegitz he can't have any either.

	21-01-2003 16:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Looks like we aren't going to get a 2nd resolution. It's a shame that the 2nd resolution was ambushed by France and Germany. I guess we'll (and the UK and Hungarians, etc., if they choose) will have to have a coalition of the willing to take this guy down. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Jan20.html

So. uh...what was the point of the inspections if you didn't care what they found?

Was it (gasp) just a cynical ploy based on your faulty assumption that Saddam wouldn't play ball, providing you with a tailor-made excuse?

	21-01-2003 17:03									#84
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Non-Proliferation Treaty...yeah, that's a good one.

Maybe Iraq wants the ability to defend itself from the only Middle Eastern nation that's known to have nuclear weapons, one that has a history of unprovoked air attacks against Iraq. Is it US policy that no Arab nation have a deterrence against this threat?

	21-01-2003 18:31									#85
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So. uh...what was the point of the inspections if you didn't care what they found?

We did care what the inspections found. Except that we think the inspections have limited value in disarming somebody if that government is uncooperative. So the value of inspections is primarily to find out whether the government is going to be cooperative or not.

	21-01-2003 18:33									#86
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"Seriously though, what is Bush waiting for ? Attack Iraq now, without UN resolution, you goddamn chicken ****!"

	21-01-2003 18:34									#87
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"We did care what the inspections found." - If they find something, Saddam is guilty of hiding it.

"Except..." ... if they find nothing, Saddam is guilty of hiding it too well.

	21-01-2003 18:36									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DanS So. uh...what was the point of the inspections if you didn't care what they found? We did care what the inspections found. Except that we think the inspections have limited value in disarming somebody if that government is uncooperative. So the value of inspections is primarily to find out whether the government is going to be cooperative or not.

And how has the government not cooperated? They let UN inspectors everywhere they wanted to go, no? Until you can show that they are witholding things from the inspectors, they aren't in breach of 1441 (?).

Right now what the US has is that the Iraqis have 16 empty shells and that they haven't invited the inspectors in for tea.

	21-01-2003 18:39									#89
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "We did care what the inspections found." - If they find something, Saddam is guilty of hiding it. "Except..." ... if they find nothing, Saddam is guilty of hiding it too well.

Exactly.

He must have been lying because we know he's got WMD.

Well if you know it, show your evidence to UNMOVIC and this entire discussion is moot. Until then, it's an unsupported statement, and no other country is beholden to believe you.

	21-01-2003 18:40									#90
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And how has the government not cooperated?

Oh, come on. Don't act like a rube. He wasn't cooperating from square 1, where he gave a declaration that didn't even incorporate what had been found and declared up to that point.

Saddam could have used it to come clean and stick it in the eye of the US. But he didn't.