21-01-2003 18:43									#91
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Specifics, please...

He's giving the inspectors a rough time, but he's not opposing them and their work. Therefore the US (and UK) have jack squat. There's no reason for the UN to do anything at this point except extend the mandate of the inspectors.

	21-01-2003 18:43									#92
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Hershell: Again, it's value is primarily in testing whether or not he was going to throw himself on the mercy of the international community. It would have been apparent if he wanted to cooperate.

	21-01-2003 18:46									#93
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"He's giving the inspectors a rough time, but he's not opposing them and their work."

You still don't get it. The inspectors can do very little unless Iraq tells them where the goods are. By not doing so, he is opposing their work.

	21-01-2003 18:47									#94
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a) How would it have been obvious? He would have gotten on TV and bared his belly? Or would he have declared a whole mess of WMD which the US is so convinced he has, but is unwilling to prove the existence of?

b) This all boils down to whether or not you believe the wholly unsubstantiated claim by the US that Iraq most certainly does have WMD. Which may or may not be, but which needs to be proven by the US side rather than disproven by the Iraqis as the US is trying so desperately to argue now that Saddam's outplayed them.

	21-01-2003 18:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "He's giving the inspectors a rough time, but he's not opposing them and their work." You still don't get it. The inspectors can do very little unless Iraq tells them where the goods are. By not doing so, he is opposing their work.

So as long as we postulate the existence of WMD, then yes, Saddam is in breach of 1441.

Do you see something wrong with this argument, Dan?

	21-01-2003 18:50									#96
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Up until yesterday the Iraqis refused to let former WoMD scientists be interviewed without Iraqi secret police being present and the Iraqis refused to let the scientists take their families with them when they went to testify in front of the U.N..

Saddam's threat was quite clear. He was holding the scientists' families hostage and was refusing to let them go. How can a person who knows about the weapons programs publicly testify if he knows his family will be killed as a result?

	21-01-2003 18:52									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Up until yesterday the Iraqis refused to let former WoMD scientists be interviewed without Iraqi secret police being present and the Iraqis refused to let the scientists take their families with them when they went to testify in front of the U.N.

No, the Iraqis were just not encouraging the scientists to be interviewed alone. No scientist said "yes" when the inspectors asked if they wanted to be. Now Iraq has promised to encourage scientists to be interviewed alone, but has said that it will not compel them to do so.

	21-01-2003 18:58									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "He's giving the inspectors a rough time, but he's not opposing them and their work." You still don't get it. The inspectors can do very little unless Iraq tells them where the goods are. By not doing so, he is opposing their work.

That is a nice little bit of double-speak, Dan. That was double-plus ungood!

	21-01-2003 19:04									#99
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How very Karl Rove.

	21-01-2003 19:25									#100
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I haven't read everything here but have one question (remember this is real life, not a revenge against a civ in Civ3):

What's the reason that the USA want to spend 10s of billions of dollars devastating an already suffering people instead of using one percent of this to bribe of Saddam's closest workers? Starving and bombing a people will not make them riot and remove their leader. They will be too weak comparing to the leader. Instead it will first be an American playground for the weapon industry and then an American oil-colony.

(I'm not questoning the Americans here, only their leaders)

Why can't everybody just be friends....

Have a nice day, hopefully in peace

	21-01-2003 19:28									#101
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quote: Originally posted by MoonWolf What's the reason that the USA want to spend 10s of billions of dollars devastating an already suffering people instead of using one percent of this to bribe of Saddam's closest workers?

We've seen how well that works with OBL.

	21-01-2003 21:07									#102
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire Ned: Er, I think so. What are you getting at? DF: I'l make this quick, but I see your point now. Yes, if the USA's stance was "nuclear weapons are eeeeeeevil and should be abolished- starting with you, Saddam" it would be hypocritical. However, we're simply saying that it's bad if more people had them- especially irresponsible leaders like Saddam. Bad mouth the US all you want, we don't torture/starve/etc. our citizens. Here's another analogy you're going to take too sweepingly and miss the point of: in a minarchist Floydist system, perhaps one person is mayor and has power in Floydsville. But being a good Floydist, he isn't in favor of creating 1,000 other municipal government positions that have power- and even if he was, he certainly wouldn't want to appoint that crazy commie chegitz to one of them. Is he being hypocritical? Hey, he has power, but he's telling chegitz he can't have any either.

Snowfire, if you were seriously supportive of the NPF, you would not justify proliferation based on the US, or for that matter, Russia, China, France or the UK having them. The goal is to halt proliferation while having the current nuclear powers reduce stockpiles to zero over time through negotiation.

Iraq and the NK are the first countries, IIRC, that have signed the NPF that have embarked on programs to acquire nukes.

To the extent the world will not enforce the NPF, or for that matter, UN resolution that are aimed at carrying out the NPF, the world will not get rid of these terror weapons ever.

So, let's not talk about hypocrisy.

	21-01-2003 21:48									#103
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quote: What's the reason that the USA want to spend 10s of billions of dollars devastating an already suffering people instead of using one percent of this to bribe of Saddam's closest workers? Starving and bombing a people will not make them riot and remove their leader. They will be too weak comparing to the leader. Instead it will first be an American playground for the weapon industry and then an American oil-colony.

So, what you think that if the americans did follow your proposal it wouldn't be an american "oil colony"?

	21-01-2003 21:49									#104
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I thought this quote from a current story running on CNN to be apt on the issue of Saddam's "cooperation."

"The Iraqis also promised to respond to questions regarding their 12,000-page declaration on chemical, biological and nuclear programs. That document, submitted to the United Nations on Dec. 8, was criticized by both Washington and the U.N. inspectors as inadequate.

The deeper issues, to be dealt with long-term by experts from both sides, mostly involve complex accountability questions about old weapons programs, such as disappearance on paper of 550 artillery shells loaded with lethal mustard gas, and a lack of evidence to support Iraq's claim it destroyed large amounts of VX nerve agent. Such questions raise suspicions the Iraqis are concealing banned arms."

	21-01-2003 21:52									#105
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A quote from Blair,

"But if we don't deal with (Iraq) now and take a stand on it now, is North Korea going to believe us? Are any of these other countries trying to obtain these weapons going to believe us if we face this challenge and duck it?"

"When we talk about Saddam, let's reflect on his regime," he continued. "Whenever he has had opportunity, he has been at war. He has threatened other neighbours and used weapons of mass destruction."

While the prime minister said he believed Iraq was trying to reconstitute its nuclear programme, he said he was sure of its chemical and biological weapons.

"What we believe, and I think the recent finds by the inspectors would bear this out, is that they are being dispersed into different parts of the country."

	21-01-2003 22:08									#106
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My thoughts, from the head end of the other thread. Some of these points have already been covered.

French Foreign Minister de Vellepin indicated yesterday that France would wage a major diplomatic fight, including possible use of its veto power, to prevent the U.N. Security Council from passing a resolution authorizing military action against Iraq. See this article in this morning's Washington Post.

I am not particularly in favor of invading Iraq. We are currently playing diplomatic poker, and right now it appears that all we have in our hand is a pair of sixes. However, I find these comments disturbing on three grounds.

Frist, a few months back we went through a protracted discussion at the UN about whether there needed to be an additional resolution before attacking Iraq. We reached some kind of tenuous agreement, and now it appears that the French have not moved one inch from their original position.

Second, it appears that both the French and the Germans are not quite straight on their facts. According to de Villepin, quote:
"Already we know for a fact that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are being largely blocked, even frozen. We must do everything possible to strengthen this process."
According to German Foreign Minister Fischerquote:
"Iraq has complied fully with all relevant resolutions and cooperated very closely with the U.N. team on the ground.
I will be the first to admit that there is no smoking gun. However, the UN inspectors indicated there are large gaps in the Iraqi declaration; there is no accounting for materials known to be in their possession during the prior inspections; and three thousand pages of classified documents which appear to be responsive to the UN request were found in the home of an Iraqi scientist. Do de Villepin and Fischer know something that the rest of us don’t, and if so would they please share it?

Lastly there is the question of timing. The Security Council resolution passed unanimously Nov. 8 gave Iraq "a last chance" to meet its obligations. now the French, Germans, and Chinese appear to indicate that the upcoming report should be regarded as a "new beginning" rather than an end to inspections. If so, why should the word of the UN Security Council be taken seriously?

Colin Powell busted his ass to get the US to play ball with the UN. And what we appear to have for our diplomatic efforts is a failure of other parties to negotiate, a likely willful ignorance of the facts, and little reason to take the word of the UN Security Council seriously. If this is the case, many Americans will wonder why we should even bother.

	21-01-2003 22:14									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Lastly there is the question of timing. The Security Council resolution passed unanimously Nov. 8 gave Iraq "a last chance" to meet its obligations. now the French, Germans, and Chinese appear to indicate that the upcoming report should be regarded as a "new beginning" rather than an end to inspections. If so, why should the word of the UN Security Council be taken seriously?

Adam, most Americans could care less what the UN thinks or does and this comes as no surprise to anyone.

	21-01-2003 22:24									#108
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Look, let's just state the obvious: France has dealings with terrorists. They love the guys, frankly, and don't really like going after the bastards. From Lybia ("don't fly over our pansy, little country to bomb Quadaffi (whatever happened to him btw? Oh, yeah! The US took care of his ass)) to dealing with Kosovo, the French lead the way in obstructionism and obfuscation.

Perhaps we can add France to the "Quadrilateral of Evil."

	21-01-2003 22:27									#109
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Margaret Thatcher had the frogs pegged a long time ago. In both the Argintine & the first gulf wars she predicted the French would moan, complain & threaten, and then in the end they'll go along with the plan. In both cases things turned out exactly as she predicted.

	21-01-2003 22:30									#110
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I just wish the Saudis and Kuwaitis and Turks would tell us to **** off. Let's see us try to mount an invasion with a base on an island in the Persian Gulf

It wouldn't really be a problem

	21-01-2003 22:34									#111
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Look, let's just state the obvious: France has dealings with terrorists. They love the guys, frankly, and don't really like going after the bastards. From Lybia ("don't fly over our pansy, little country to bomb Quadaffi (whatever happened to him btw? Oh, yeah! The US took care of his ass)) to dealing with Kosovo, the French lead the way in obstructionism and obfuscation. Perhaps we can add France to the "Quadrilateral of Evil."

JohnT,

I will take devils advocate since there aren't many French who post here. The French (with all their shortcomings) have arrested more al Qaeda suspects than anyone else. They have also been one of the countries with the most terrorist attacks against it. They just do what ever petty thing they can to disrupt our hegemonic supremacy, that's all.

	21-01-2003 22:42									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger No, the Iraqis were just not encouraging the scientists to be interviewed alone. No scientist said "yes" when the inspectors asked if they wanted to be. Now Iraq has promised to encourage scientists to be interviewed alone, but has said that it will not compel them to do so.

What's the point. The scientist will not do anything unless Saddam tells them to, because they are afraid of him. By Saddam hot compelling them to be interviewed he might as well tell them not to be interviewed unless.

	21-01-2003 22:44									#113
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quote: Adam, most Americans could care less what the UN thinks or does and this comes as no surprise to anyone.

You're right. When Libya becomes head of the UN rights panel, it shouldn't be a suprise that people don't take the UN seriously.

	21-01-2003 22:48									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ned A quote from Blair, "But if we don't deal with (Iraq) now and take a stand on it now, is North Korea going to believe us? Are any of these other countries trying to obtain these weapons going to believe us if we face this challenge and duck it?"

Good point. Only GB and USA know about the responsibility that comes with military power.

	21-01-2003 23:21									#115
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quote: Originally posted by MoonWolf Instead it will first be an American playground for the weapon industry and then an American oil-colony.

I've never understood this oil colony business. Is there actually any out there simple minded enough to really believe this is the truth? Hello! Earth to space cadet. Have you ever heard of the commodities exchange market? Anyone with money can already buy all the oil the want. It would be ten times more expensive to occupy a country to try to set up an oil colony then it would be just to buy the oil at market rate. Ergo it is not about setting up an oil colony.

It's about getting rid of someone who's been a pain in the backside and making an example out of him. It's about demenstraiting that bad things happen to people who try to upset the apple cart. That the guy happens to be an SOB and that we will once again get to experiment in creating spin-offs in our image is just icing on the cake.

Is that fair? No. Is it effective? Yes. Will it make make countries like North Korea and Iran think long and hard before they get into any pissing contests with us? Yes, and that's why knocking off Saddam is a good idea.

	21-01-2003 23:35									#116
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So when do we fit this thread with a Gun rack? Maybe one of those "don't mess with texas" bumperstickers?

	21-01-2003 23:45									#117
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reminder : must get myself one of those stickers.

	21-01-2003 23:48									#118
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It wouldn't really be a problem

We could probably just drop our new urban warfare troops directly on Bagdad and take it out in 24 hours.

I hear rumors of pulse munitions that can be detonated at street level effectively disabling defenders and civilians alike for up to ten minutes, plenty of time to drop in troops and overun even prepared defensive positions.

And rumors from Ft. Bragg that we have infiltrators in place this time.

Turkey shoot.

	22-01-2003 00:01									#119
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick We could probably just drop our new urban warfare troops directly on Bagdad and take it out in 24 hours. I hear rumors of pulse munitions that can be detonated at street level effectively disabling defenders and civilians alike for up to ten minutes, plenty of time to drop in troops and overun even prepared defensive positions. And rumors from Ft. Bragg that we have infiltrators in place this time. Turkey shoot.

While i think that the US would most probably be able to invade IRAQ without any problems, i'm not so sure about what you say here.
I just hope the lessons of Mogadeshiu haven't been forgotten if it gets to that.

	22-01-2003 00:11									#120
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Adam Smith, It does appear that France and Germany are 1) not operating on the same set of facts, or 2) they are drawing different conclusions from a common set of facts, or 3) they are being disengenuous.

I say the French and Germans are being disengenuous. I believe the facts strongly suggest more Saddam obstruction with only the appearance of cooperation.

As you say, Adam Smith, I too am deeply disturbed by the French and German obstructionism. This presages a wholesale rearrangement of alliances. As Che would say, the world, or at least some of it, appears to have united against America and the UK.

(Just as an asside, I have just finished listening to Band of Brothers on tape. It appears the French had a very hostile, anti-American attitude even as we liberated them in WWII. Now, someone, please explain that!)

Last edited by Ned on 22-01-2003 at 03:01