24-01-2003 10:26									#31
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I never got into slivers the first time around. But being a weenie-creature general, I was enthused by the one that lets all Slivers be played at instant speed.

And how about that Mistform Ultimus? If you haven't seen it yet, it counts as all creature types. There's going to be a run on Lords of Atlantis when the tournament players start getting copies of the Ultimus.

	24-01-2003 19:03									#32
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Slivers are after my time but I assume they're more 1/1 counter creatures. I think I've still got a merman deck with 4 lords of atlantis though

I thought the original PC Magic game was of a reasonable standard. It gave you a considerable number of cards to collect and your AI opponents were varied if not superb players. I have no intention of playing the new online game. Paying for resalable cardboard is one thing. Paying money for virtual cards is another thing entirely.

	24-01-2003 19:22									#33
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No, a sliver is merely a creature with type sliver - all colours I think, although predominantly green, and each has an ability text along the lines of "Each sliver gains [ability]".

So there's a flyer, a +1/+1, a tap-sacrifice to deal damage, and a play-as-instants sliver to start with, and all slivers are then fliers, +1/+1, have tap-sacrifice for damage or can be played as instants.

	24-01-2003 23:03									#34
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Ah a weenie deck special (assuming the cost is cheap )

	25-01-2003 16:01									#35
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Slivers are really cool. I like the whole "hive mind" aspect of them. The problem is that they tend to be overpriced individually, so they only get effective if you have a lot of them. They all cost 2 or 3 mana for abilities that would be on a non-sliver creature costing 1 or 2 mana. Sliver decks tend to be vulnerable to both selective creature removal and many black and blue effects, and must be either really fast, which is hard given the bad mana curve, or be protected with a lot of countermagic.

The exception is the Muscle Sliver, which is a Bear (2/2 green creature for 1G) even if you play it by itself, so four of these are a decent addition to any Type 1 green deck. But the original slivers, back in Stronghold, were not primarily green, they were equally balanced with each color getting two and each allied multicolor combination getting one.

The star of the show was the Sliver Queen, which was the first card to cost one mana of each color. She was a 7/7 sliver for 5 mana, and could produce 1/1 sliver tokens for 2 colorless mana. Of course, this was before the invasion cycle, when it was a lot harder to do multicolor decks. They missed their chance to add really cool slivers in that cycle; enemy-colored slivers in the Apocalypse expansion would have been a lot of fun and would have fit into the theme perfectly.

	26-01-2003 04:20									#36
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There are a few other slivers that work in non-sliver decks. Crystalline slivers are pretty good, a 2/2 for UW that cannot be targetted by spells or abilities.

Needless to say, sliver decks usually run four of them.

quote: And how about that Mistform Ultimus? If you haven't seen it yet, it counts as all creature types. There's going to be a run on Lords of Atlantis when the tournament players start getting copies of the Ultimus.

Play with slivers. All slivers now have the ultimus special ability when the ultimus becomes a sliver. Lord of Atlantis now pumps up all the slivers, as all slivers count as Mistfolk in addition to their normal sliver pump ups.

Can anyone think of any other combos? I'm sure there are more.

	26-01-2003 05:18									#37
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What did the 'invasion cycle' do to improve multicolour decks? The only thing I could do when wanting multicolour is pile all my matching dual lands in the deck.

	26-01-2003 06:42									#38
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darn.. i got all excited their for a moment at the mention of TopTrumps and drifted back to my youth.

Only played Magic once or twice and soon got bored as i was consistently outgunned by friends who seemed to have the GNP of a small european nation on cards to get the best ones. I assume that there are various house rules to stop this sort of 'buying' success ? Guess they just didn;t want to admit to them !!

	26-01-2003 09:04									#39
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Mistform Ultimus sounds really useful with Coat of Arms. If it counts as all creature types, that means all creatures gain +1/+1, right?

	26-01-2003 12:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 There are a few other slivers that work in non-sliver decks. Crystalline slivers are pretty good, a 2/2 for UW that cannot be targetted by spells or abilities.

Looks like a mini Autumn Willow

But what exactly are Slivers? I am still not sure what they do.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Play with slivers. All slivers now have the ultimus special ability when the ultimus becomes a sliver. Lord of Atlantis now pumps up all the slivers, as all slivers count as Mistfolk in addition to their normal sliver pump ups.

Does it mean when a creature becomes a sliver, all other creatures gain its special abilities?

	26-01-2003 12:43									#41
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UR: Hehe, I found two Autunm Willows in the commons box once. In any case, all Slivers have an ability along the lines of "All Slivers have X." So Clot Sliver is 1B for a 1/1 with "All Slivers gain 2: Regenerates" while Winged Sliver is 1U for a 1/1 with "All Slivers gain Flying." Individually, a 1/1 flyer for 1U is pretty bad, as is a 1B 1/1 Regenerator (heck, Drudge Skeletons are better, they regenerate cheaper). But if you have both out, then they're both flying regenerators. If you have out Crystalline Sliver as well (WU for a 2/2 with "Slivers can't be the target of spells or abilities") then every sliver gets even stronger and more efficient.

Play with slivers. All slivers now have the ultimus special ability when the ultimus becomes a sliver. Lord of Atlantis now pumps up all the slivers, as all slivers count as Mistfolk in addition to their normal sliver pump ups.

Nice try. Mistform Ultimus merely says that it is all creature types. It doesn't say "All slivers are all creature types." Therefore Lord of Atlantis won't pump slivers.

Now slivers will pump the Mistform Ultimus, but it's probably better just to play with another sliver unless you really want the 3/3 body.

	27-01-2003 16:47									#42
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Dr Spike: I think you've got it!

The one and only tourney I ever played in was a sealed deck affair (which has been pointed out to be the great equalizer, and renders the "suitcase guys" largely impotent, actually....since they get all soft relying on their uber cards, they usually fall apart when they have to make due with lesser stock).

For the tourney I participated in, you bought your stock (two 60 card decks, one booster pack, and eight basic lands of your choosing--in case you were short) and were permitted half an hour to trade around the room.

The deck I won with (went through the tourney undefeated!) was a simply-constructed, Red-Green, little critter, direct damage, and boosting card deck, with a trio of Stormbind cards (Ice Age set...long time ago!) thrown in as a kicker.

So it's not *always* the guy with the uber-deck that can get a win....with persistence, and a good understanding of what your deck can do, just about anything CAN be made into a winner!

-=Vel=-

	27-01-2003 20:45									#43
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In case folk are wondering, I came around 60th of 150-odd players in the pre-release. This is less impressive when you take into account the fact that all except about 65 had dropped by the end...

OTOH, I did do rather well in a raffle. I bought 5 tickets for £5, and drew the star prize - a Mox Pearl. The then offered the alternative "Mox or a Box", so after some consultation with the guys I'd gone down with, and based on Mox condition (playable in a sleeve, probably), I took the box.

So I can now say I have owned a Mox Pearl for 2 minutes, and I now have 36 Judgement boosters being slowly opened.

Among other acquisitions I like, though, is an Italian Soldevi Excavations. Niiiiiice card.

	27-01-2003 21:25									#44
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sounds like it was a pretty successful trip then Chowlett. nice

36 boosters is a nice haul.

	28-01-2003 03:10									#45
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"Nice try. Mistform Ultimus merely says that it is all creature types. It doesn't say "All slivers are all creature types." Therefore Lord of Atlantis won't pump slivers."

Snowfire:

Slivers are a subset of creatures.
Mistform Ultimus is all creature types simultaneously.
Therefore Mistform Ultimus counts as a sliver.

One of the built-in abilities of creatures of the subset sliver is the ability to share all other abilities with other slivers.

This includes the mistform ability that says, Mistform Ultimus is all creature types simultaneously.

Therefore, all slivers gain this mistform ability, and all slivers are all creature types simultaneously.

Slivers now count as merfolk, slivers, elves,
zombies, in addition to counting as slivers.
Also the mistform gains all the current sliver abilities in play.

	28-01-2003 05:09									#46
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Obiwan - no, it doesn't. It is stated on every sliver card that it shares it's ability with all other slivers - but it's not an inherent rule (I know, I read them before going to the pre-release).

The only creature types with inherent abilities are Wall (can't attack) and Legend (no more than one with the same name in play at any time). All other special types - slivers, flagbearers etc - have their rules printed on the cards.

	28-01-2003 13:57									#47
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire UR: Hehe, I found two Autunm Willows in the commons box once.

Ugh, you lucky bugger.

Thanks for the explanation.

It seems Goblin Kings are good for Mistform Ultimus too.

	29-01-2003 06:27									#48
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magic lost its appeal for me somewhere after homelands. it was about then that i discovered the joys of legend of the five rings. it's actually got a story. that, and the players can influence the story, as well.

	30-01-2003 03:49									#49
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Chowlett,

Hopefully, there will be a WotC ruling to confirm this position. I do believe slivers have an inherent ability, in the same sense as walls or legends have inherent abilities.

	30-01-2003 05:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Chowlett, Hopefully, there will be a WotC ruling to confirm this position. I do believe slivers have an inherent ability, in the same sense as walls or legends have inherent abilities.

No, it is most definitely not the case. I will be most surprised if WotC erratas this. Every Wall card merely says Creature - Wall (the newer ones have italicised reminder text that walls can't attack, but it's not rules text). In contrast, sliver cards all say "All slivers gain ". It's a rules text.

Besides, with Mistforms in the game, having the Sliver rule applying to every sliver would be insane - if that were the case, you could play a White-Black-Blue deck and simply mistform your Akroma into a Sliver, and then your Phage into a sliver. You'd then have 2 Flying, First Strike, Haste, Prot Black, Prot Red, Trample, non-tapping creatures, each with the Phage ability of Death on Damage. Insane.

	30-01-2003 07:26									#51
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Slivers do not have an inherent ability. You can look at some of the original ones from Tempest to confirm this. Any sliver that grants abilities says so explicitly on the card.

	30-01-2003 16:18									#52
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Death on Damage? Ugh.

	30-01-2003 18:00									#54
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* FrustratedPoet adds 'start playing Magic again' to his list of "Things to do when I have some money"

	31-01-2003 05:41									#55
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Mr. President:

I worded that poorly. Slivers do not have the inherent ability to fly, etc. However, I do think they have the intrinsic ability to share abilities. Are there any slivers without this quality, that are unable to share abilities?

Sliver Queen gains the abilities of all the slivers, and all other slivers gain the ability to produce 1/1 slivers for 2.

Chowlett:

quote: Besides, with Mistforms in the game, having the Sliver rule applying to every sliver would be insane - if that were the case, you could play a White-Black-Blue deck and simply mistform your Akroma into a Sliver, and then your Phage into a sliver. You'd then have 2 Flying, First Strike, Haste, Prot Black, Prot Red, Trample, non-tapping creatures, each with the Phage ability of Death on Damage. Insane.

No. How does Phage or Akroma become a sliver? You could change all the slivers to Minions, but minions do not gain the phages' abilities.

Another use would be to have the Sliver Queen, Lord of the Pit and Mistform Ultimus. The sliver queen produces the token, the token slivers gain the ultimus ability, morph into minions and then feed the Pitlord.

*non-sequitor*
And she's a chick

	31-01-2003 06:25									#56
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Sorry if I sounded too harsh, Obiwan. I checked the Tempest card list, and it looks like the ancient slivers give other slivers an ability. I didn't get into Tempest and slivers the first time around.

For instance, Muscle Sliver gives all Slivers +1/+1 . So if you control a Mistform Ultimus and a Muscle Sliver, the Mistform Ultimus gets +1/+1 . Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

I'm inclined to think, though, that the Mistform Ultimus wouldn't share its ability to be all creature types at one time with other creatures (specifically slivers) since the cards that do things like that usually say so explicitly.

It might be worth asking Wizards.

Edit: There's an article about the Mistform Ultimus at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jm54 . I don't know if it's much help to this discussion, though.

Still, I couldn't help but laugh, then get a headache when I got to the part that says

quote: The Ultimus is currently a "Creature — Abomination Aboroth Advisor Aladdin Albatross Alchemist Ali-Baba Ali-from-Cairo Alligator Ambush-Party Ancestor Angel Ant Antelope Ape Archaeologist Asp Assassin Assembly-Worker Atog Aurochs Avatar Avenger Avizoa Badger Ball-Lightning Bandit Banshee Barbarian Barishi Basilisk Bat Bear Beast Bee Beeble Behemoth Being Berserker Bird Boar Bodyguard Brother Brownie Brushwagg Bull Bureaucrat Butterfly Camarid Camel Caravan Caribou Carnivore Carriage Carrier Cat Cavalry Cave-People Centaur Cephalid Cheetah Chicken Chimera Citizen Clamfolk Cleric Clone Cobra Cockatrice Constable Cow Crab Crocodile Crusader Dandan Demon Dervish Deserter Devil Devouring-Deep Dinosaur Djinn Dog Doppelganger Dragon Dragonfly Drake Drill-Sergeant Druid Dryad Dwarf Eater Eel Effigy Efreet Egg Elder Elemental Elephant Elf El-Hajjaj Enchantress Entity Erne Essence Exorcist Faerie Fallen Farmer Ferret Fiend Fish Flagbearer Flying-Men Force Fox Frog Frostbeast Fungus Fungusaur Gaea's-Avenger Gaea's-Liege Gargoyle Gatekeeper General Ghost Ghoul Giant Gnome Goat Goblin Golem Gorgon Graveborn Gremlin Griffin Guardian Gus Gypsy Hag Harlequin Hell's-Caretaker Heretic Hero Hipparion Hippo Homarid Hornet Horror Horse Horseman Hound Hunter Hydra Hyena Illusion Imp Incarnation Infernal-Denizen Inquisitor Insect Island-Fish Jackal Jellyfish Kavu Keeper Kelp King Kithkin Knight Kobold Kraken Lady-of-Proper-Etiquette Leech Legend Legionnaire Lemure Leper Leviathan Lhurgoyf Lichenthrope Licid Lion Lizard Lord Lurker Lycanthrope Mage Maggot Maiden Mammoth Manticore Mantis Marid Martyr Master Medusa Meerkat Mercenary Merchant Merfolk Mindsucker Minion Minor Minotaur Miracle-Worker Mist Mistfolk Mob Mold-Demon Monger Mongoose Monkey Monster Mosquito Mummy Murk-Dwellers Mutant Mystic Nameless-Race Narwhal Necrosavant Nekrataal Niall-Silvain Nightmare Nightstalker Noble Nomad Octopus Ogre Ooze Orb Orc Orgg Ouphe Ox Oyster Paladin Peacekeeper Pegasus People-of-the-Woods Phantasm Phelddagrif Phoenix Pig Pikemen Pirate Pixie-Queen Plant Poison-Snake Poltergeist Pony Preacher Priest Prism Pyknite Rabbit Raider Ranger Rat Rebel Reflection Rhino Robber Roc Rock-Sled Rooster Rukh Sage Salamander Sand Saproling Satyr Scavenger Scorpion Scout Serf Serpent Shade Shapeshifter Shark Sheep Ship Shyft Sindbad Singing-Tree Sister Skeleton Sliver Slug Smith Snake Soldier Sorceress Spawn Speaker Specter Spellshaper Sphinx Spider Spike Spirit Sponge Sprite Spuzzem Spy Squire Squirrel Stangg-Twin Starfish Stone Strider Survivor Swarm Tactician Tarpan Taskmaster Tetravite The-Biggest-Baddest-Nastiest-Scariest-Creature-You'll-Ever-See Thopter Thrull Thundermare Tiger Titan Toad Tombspawn Tortoise Townsfolk Tracker Treefolk Troll Turtle Uncle-Istvan Undead Unicorn Vampire Viashino Villain Viper Volver Vulture Walking-Dead Wall War-Rider Warrior Warthog Wasp Wave Whale Whippoorwill Wight Wiitigo Wildebeest Will-o'-the-Wisp Witch Wizard Wolf Wolverine Wolverine-Pack Wolves-of-the-Hunt Wombat Wood Worm Wraith Wretched Wurm Yeti Zombie"

	31-01-2003 13:25									#57
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The Magic Rules, in all their granduer:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?...urneyplayer,,en

Obiwan, if there was some inherent rule about Slivers, then Chowlett would be right. Mistforming any random thing into a Sliver would be insane. There's a reason why both of the two special Creature types are negative- even though Onslaught emphasized it, creature-type changey stuff has been around a long time.

In any case, I hate to say it, but the obligation is on you to prove that there is such a rule. Check the document and cite a section. A simple search reveals the word "Wall" and "Legend" both coming up several times, but "Sliver" occurs nowhere in the document. Therefore there's nothing in the rules about Slivers. And again, as already pointed out, if there was such an inherent rule, then all the Sliver abilities would be italic reminder text, not standard-type rules text.

	31-01-2003 14:27									#58
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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jm54

quote: How It Works (From the forthcoming Legions FAQ) The types "Illusion" and "Legend" are printed on the card's type line purely for flavor. The Ultimus has every other creature type as well. It's a Legend, so the Legend rule applies to it. It's also a Wall, so the Wall rule applies to it (although it has an ability that allows it to ignore this rule). It's also a Sliver, and so will gain all Sliver abilities.

Does that help?

It's also a Flagbearer - my god there must be a lot of cool tricks you can do with that.

	31-01-2003 16:48									#59
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Yes, but a Sliver doesn't a priori give it's ability. It just gains from other ones.

Similarly, while Mistform Ulimus is a flagbearer, because flagbearer isn't a type with an inherent rule, you're free to target stuff other than MU unless a real, concrete flagbearer is in play - at which point the rules-text on that flagbearer applies to the Ultimus.

	31-01-2003 17:02									#60
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OK, I think I get it now.

Although the Ultimus is a Flagbearer it won't gain the "must be targeted" ability because Flagbearer's don't have any inherent rules.
However, once you bring out a different Flagbearer card (one that has the Flagbearer ability printed on it) the text that reads "Targeted attacks must target a Flagbearer in play" (or whatever it says) then - and only then - will the ability apply to the Ultimus.

Yes?