21-01-2003 21:16									#1
	Seeking advice (PBEM strategy q's) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok, I'm looking for advice.

The Situation:

I'm playing a PBEM game with my best friend and my girlfriend. Monarchy level, standard across the board except for sedentary barbs. My gf is apparently stuck on a mediocre island, and is thus not a concern (at least for now) but my friend Tom and I are both on the main continent.

He is Egypt. I am China.

The Ottomans are between us, but he warrior rushed them and took down Istanbul. They have 2 other cities, both of which I plan to hit relatively soon.

While he was doing that, I researched pottery, built a granary, and started pumping settlers from my capitol (not an "ideal" settler pump, in that I am only at +3 food/turn, but still pretty solid).

I have 6 cities built, with a settler team on the move (3 turns until new city built) and a settler under construction (3 or 4 turns to go). It looks like Tom has 4 cities, plus Istanbul = 5 (istanbul is pretty crap, though). My terrain is nice. His looks good, but not as nice.

The Greeks are on the other side of me (I'm almost exactly in the middle of the map). They are weak, due to poor location. Tom will meet them shortly. So, from North to South (with a little East to West orientation as well) it's the Greeks, Me, Ottomans, Egypt.

Tech: Tom and I both have: masonry, warrior code, the wheel, bronze, iron, pottery, alphabet, ceremonial burial, mysticism (I think). I have writing, and so do the Greeks (Tom doesn't). I have been trying to sell it to him for cash, but that deal hangs in the balance while his exploring warrior nears Greece. If he gets much closer, I am considering gifting all tech I know to Greece, to prevent Tom from buying it on the cheap.

Resources: I have two sources of iron within easy reach. I do not have horses. Tom has horses, and they're already hooked up. I don't know about iron (none hooked up as of embassy build, and my exploring warriors have seen none on the outskirts of his territory, but that proves nothing). The Ottomans also have horses next to what is now their capitol. That city lies directly between Tom and I.

My plan is to upgrade some vet warriors to swords and finish of the Ottomans, thus gaining horses and spices (they beat me to a city spot by 1 turn... I built next to it, but they control the tiles for now... I'm not wasting time building temples as China. Well, I'm building one, but nevermind that ).

Luxuries: I have ivory hooked up, wine will be connected next turn. Spices within reach, I just have to whack the 2nd Ottoman city to get them. I know Tom has wine.

Geographical setup: The western 1/2 to 2/3 of the part of the continent that lies between China and Egypt is jungle. Good for me: no war chariots. The eastern 1/3 to 1/2 is mostly flat... desert, with some hills & a mountain next to the Ottoman capitol. That concerns me, of course. Tom's homeland has mountains up north (good cover for a sword invasion), but flattens out down by Thebes.

Miscellanious: I'm gaining 14 gold per turn right now, researching code of laws at 10%. I was going to do that with HBR, but feared getting it too soon (need time after capturing the Ottoman capitol to build some chariots for upgrade). I think I have about 45 gold right now. If Tom agrees to the writing deal, I stand to receive somewhere between 100 and 150 gold (his offer, my counter). *prays for upgrade cash*

Early on, Tom and I made a tech deal (Alpabet + 20 gold for Ironworking) which included a "non-agression" agreement until 500BC. I fully expect all hell to break loose in 500BC.

So, how do ya'll think I ought to proceed? I'm leaning toward shooting for an initial warrior -> sword upgrade of 8-10 units. I would then divide them between the two Ottoman cities, provide the mini-stacks with 1 spear each, and go whoop some ass. This would give me horses.

Meanwhile, my main opponent has his War Chariots, which are cheap. If he gets his grubby paws on iron, he can use all available cash for sword upgrades. I either have to eat the 50% extra cost of building horsemen, or do a chariot -> horse upgrade at 20 gold per unit. Fighting him, which is so going to happen (either I start it, or he will, no doubt about it), will involve a GA for him, with 20-shield 2/1/2 units available. Ouch.

How do I beat that? Do I try strategic defense, until I bleed him dry? Or do I attack? I'm inclined to attack, but if it fails, I'm probably dead. High risk, high reward.

-Arrian

	21-01-2003 21:34									#2
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My main thought would be that you need to be able to take down War Chariots and that means attacking them with horsemen so they can't retreat. You need the horses, otherwise your friend will dictate combat in open terrain with his fast units.

	21-01-2003 21:39									#3
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My opinion:

Build your mini stacks of Swordsmen, and make sure that you have a road network running all the way up to the Ottoman empire. Take the two cities, praying for 0 casualties. Have a couple of workers ready to hook up the cities and horses.

Let your Swordsmen heal, and then send them along toward Egypt. Try and stick to high ground and just do some recon.
Keep a look out for your friend preparing to attack you.

Build your chariots and prepare to upgrade to horsemen. If you can, try to send them out in waves, so that you have some in reserve for a mobile defense if you fear an attack by WCs.

I think that your swordsmen should mass outside of one of his cities and prepare to attack at 500 B.C. Even if it's not the greatest, it will make him rethink his plans when he sees your stack. Use this stack to hit his worst defended cities. Your waves of horseman should come straight up the middle and hit his units that pop out. Try and stay outside of his road network, or your horsemen may be slaughtered. Use these as a frontline defense. Keep turning out units at home and send them to reinforce. Keep an eye out for a sneaky counterattack.
Keep your stack of Swordsmen alive.

If this doesn't make sense, just assume that I didn't picture the map correctly, and ignore it.

	21-01-2003 21:49									#4
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That's for certain. I just hope to hell I have enough time to take down that Ottoman city before he decides to, thus denying me the horsies.

I know he has a barracks in Thebes (thank you, Mr. Ambassador, sir!), but I don't think he's built that many attack units. The initial warrior rush gave way to some settler builds, obviously. If he's unwilling to blow his GA to take that Ottoman city, he will have to do it with Swords (archers highly unlikely... he hates 'em, and they really are a waste of shields at this point).

My military is starting to get set up. I have 1 barracks built, another set to complete in 2 turns, and my capitol just started one too. That means pumping out the required vet warriors will go quickly. Cash is more of a concern. The next town I build will put iron w/in my borders. I still have to road to it and road the tile itself (it's due east of my capitol, so not far).

I am well below the "allowed units" number, so I can build units without harming cashflow for a bit. At least that's not a worry. So I'm considering building more vet warriors than I can possibly afford to upgrade anytime soon. I can connect the iron, upgrade those I can afford, and hit the Ottomans. The remaining vet warriors can hang out awaiting more cash.

Perhaps I should switch research to HBR now, and forget about CoL. CoL has high trade value... later in the game. But now? I think I may have made a mistake there. Luckily, I think I've only blown 2 turns of 10% research on it.

-Arrian

	21-01-2003 21:52									#5
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Crosspost w/BRC.

That's pretty much what I want to do. Except for that "waves" thing. Holding a horseman or two in reserve for mobile defense is one thing. But when I attack, I'm going to want just about all the hitting power I've got with me.

-Arrian

	21-01-2003 21:54									#6
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One thing is for certain:

This is going to be an ugly fight. I have to admit I'm quite worried I may lose.

I guess "winning" isn't really necessary. If we get into a slugfest, and stalemate, that benifits me. His GA is blown fighting me, and I still have my Riders to look forward to.

-Arrian

	21-01-2003 22:09									#7
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quote: That's pretty much what I want to do. Except for that "waves" thing. Holding a horseman or two in reserve for mobile defense is one thing. But when I attack, I'm going to want just about all the hitting power I've got with me.

You know best. Get him.

quote: I guess "winning" isn't really necessary. If we get into a slugfest, and stalemate, that benifits me. His GA is blown fighting me, and I still have my Riders to look forward to.

This is what I was trying to say. Just make him feel like he is pressured and take advantage of any opportunities that arise. If there are no opportunities, then just hold. Good luck!

	21-01-2003 23:14									#8
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I would set up one huge swordman/spearman SOD and march straight for his core cities. The goal is to force him to fight WC vs. Spearman, a fair fight if you have some horsemen to pick off redlined WCs. Be sure to have a steady stream of spearmen reinforcements.

If your swordmen get to his cities unscathed you have won the game. If not, he will still have blown his GA fighting in his own territory.

The key to pulling this off is to have a bigger army than him when the war starts.

	21-01-2003 23:30									#9
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I thought WCs were 1.1.2.
Or did your 2.1.2 assume a cheap upgrade?

	21-01-2003 23:37									#10
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Cs are 1.1.2

WCs are 2.1.2

	21-01-2003 23:44									#11
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Were WCs always 2.1.2?
I must be losing my mind.

	21-01-2003 23:54									#12
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Dave:

That makes sense. Nothin' fancy, just go for the jugular.

The big thing is getting my attack stack up into his northern mountains before he can hit it with WCs.

So I guess I need lots of spearmen: enough to absorb the WC attacks until I can reach the mountains.

-Arrian

	21-01-2003 23:58									#13
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ducki,

Yeah, always 2.1.2. It's an awesome UU.

-Arrian

	22-01-2003 01:50									#14
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Arrian:

Nutshell: fight for a stalemate with Egypt over the dead body of the Turks. Then go for a massive Rider upgrade.

Too bad its the Greeks on the other side. Anyone else but them (or Carthage) and you could have tried to gain some size on Egypt with your horsemen you were building up for the Rider upgrade.

Is the continent big enough to max out your productive cities?

	22-01-2003 02:07									#15
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Brizey,

I have a good chunk of good terrain. There is a large jungle to my southwest and another smaller jungle due east, between me and the Greeks. I have the best terrain on the continent. Egypt has the next best terrain. The continent overall is plenty big enough (though it will take some work to clear the big jungle) for a powerful empire.

Even if it wasn't the Greeks to my East/NorthEast, I wouldn't fight that civ, for fear of being hit from behind by Egypt. Frankly, I intend to buy an alliance w/Greece vs. Egypt. Even though they probably won't provide much help, I cannot afford to leave them neutral. My friend is smart enough to buy their services.

-Arrian

	22-01-2003 04:42									#16
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Arrian:

Sounds like a tricky timing proposition. You might want to buy the Greeks off before you upgrade to Riders, just to be sure they are on your side before you go and line up 40 riders on one border.

My orignal thought was that one or two extra cities could tilt the balance in your favor. With MP, everyone is on an even production curve, so every city, every population point, counts. You having 10 cities instead of 8 could make a huge difference long term. But, as you said, the possibility of a two front war is a serious concern.

BTW, I assume you know how important it is to beat Egypt to Chivalry. Your buddy will have a gazillion WC's (aside: I still think water closet when I see 'WC') to upgrade. Five turns or so should be enough with Riders to tilt the balance forever in your favor. Once you get a two to one city lead, the equality of MP production will pretty much seal Eqypt's fate.

Another BTW: sounds like your GF got shafted big time. You two take the two best civs and she gets stuck on some crappy island.

	22-01-2003 07:23									#17
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Arrian,

First, I think it's pretty clear if you get to Chivalry you are gonna kick butt (I have nightmares of playing you as China).

You know me... balls to the wall, keep it simple. All vet Warriors, forget about research, upgrade, take Tom down. Don;t worry about Spearmen, btw...

	22-01-2003 19:13									#18
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Theseus,

Heh, I wish I felt as intimidating as you make me out to be.

I've got 8 cities built now, and because I really do have such a good spot for it, I'm taking a shot at the Colossus. Production isn't my problem for a warrior -> sword upgrade. Money is.

One annoyance: the Ottomans built a 3rd city, inbetween me and their capitol. I was about to build a city right around there (settler 2 turns away). That's the second time the Ottomans have done that to me. I will enjoy their destruction.

I dunno about "don't worry about spearmen." I'd rather he throw war chariots at spears than my swords. I won't go overboard on spears, but I will bring some.

On the upside, I've caught and passed Tom in score (I think it's 124 to 122 at this point). We also made another tech trade (writing & contact w/the Greeks - which he would have gotten anyway - for mathematics) 1225 bc and counting...

-Arrian

	22-01-2003 19:15									#19
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Brizey,

Yeah, my GF isn't that impressed with her location. She said if it was SP, she would have started a new game.

As for civ choice, hers ain't bad: Persia. Grant you, it would be better if she had someone to use Immortals on. OTOH, she's safe from the mean, nasty, warmongering Tom and Rob (for a while).

-Arrian

	22-01-2003 19:28									#20
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I can't believe you've got your GF to play Civ with you. I've been trying to get mine interested since before the game release. Is there some kind of trick to use, or is she just a special kinda girl? Mine just looks at the screen and says,
"Oh that game again"

On a different note, I'm suprised to see you asking for tips

-Jam

	22-01-2003 20:44									#21
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I guess she's a special kinda girl.

I'm asking for tips because I have nearly zero multiplayer experience.

We've already encountered some key differences between SP and MP:

1) Tom moved a warrior into my territory fairly early on, and was genuinely surprised when I reacted angrily (really angrily... it was late and I'd had a few drinks). I informed him that he was to leave immediately, back the way he came, or I would declare war on him. Period. He chose to back off. I'm really glad he did, since the only military I had was a couple of regular warriors and a couple of regular spearmen. I was in no position to stop his warriors from ripping up my improvements.

2) Tom fortified a warrior on a tile I wanted to build a city on (very close to my capitol, quite far away from his) and blocked my settler for 2 turns before finally agreeing to move. Again, to him that seemed to be a perfectly valid thing to do (I told him that sure, technically it was, but if he was going to do that, I would be forced to build an archer and move his warrior for him).

These things do not pop up with the AI. The AI has no respect for your borders, but also is too dumb to do much with the info gained from tramping around inside them. The AI will not use exploring warriors to hamper human expansion (at least not deliberately).

-Arrian

	22-01-2003 21:20									#22
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My wife sometimes will ask as she walks by the computer and asks "Who are you conquering tonight dear?" Sometimes she'll sense I'm itching to get back to a game and says "Honey, why don't you go and slay some dragons? Get one for me!"

After telling her in a recent game I was slaughtering Korea, pounding their cities with ruthless bombardment before I razed it. At dinner I had a very blank expression on my face and missed something she said. Snapping her fingers, she says "Hello?? You're not in Korea are you?"

My favorite comment of hers was...
when I was behind in a game and way behind on military. I was allied with another civ who did almost all of the fighting and I was poaching sites after a razing or border collapse. For once she asked what I was doing in this game. When I explained this tactic she replied...

"Well that's kind of being a real wimp, isn't it?"



Charis

	22-01-2003 21:28									#23
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She cuts to the chase, huh?

My gf typically just reminds me that I yell at the pixels a lot.

I've been working on teaching her all about warfare. She's pretty good at expanding & building and such, but has (had) issues with war. This lead to a lot of games that she would abandon somewhere in the middle ages.

I convinced her to play them out, and explained what I meant when I said things like "build Cavalry. Lots of Cavalry." I also had to emphasize speed in her most recent SP game. She was fighting a war, as a republic, and had a large number of knights gathering to take on an already weakened opponent. She was dithering. I took one look at the situation and explained that attacking now, with all she had would 1) break the enemy, 2) actually save casualties by getting to the enemy's iron & horse supplies, 3) save her from greater WW, and 4) allow her to use the leader she had gotten to rush the FP in the right spot sooner.

Essentially, she needs to develop the killer instinct a little more. "Go for the jugular" isn't really her motto... yet.

I may, however, create a monster. Every time she has taken up something that Tom & I do, she ends up as good or better than us. She's smarter than us, I think. I can only counter with obbession.

-Arrian

	23-01-2003 02:48									#24
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I can't get my wife to play either. I think she will when she is doen with grad school. For now the learning curve is too steep and her chances to play too sporadic. She is a good egg, though. Like Charis's wife, she can tell when I am off in Civ-land and says "go play computer games." She does like the fact that I like to play the Chinese, though (she is Chinese).

	23-01-2003 05:59									#25
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My fiance is pretty cool about it, and takes an interest but doesn;t play.

She does like to see some of the impossible situations I get into, with enemy SODs all over the place, and then see the "after" result when I've wiped'em out and am ready for retaliation.

I get a pat on the head and a "good boy" like I'm a dog with a bone.

	23-01-2003 16:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I get a pat on the head and a "good boy" like I'm a dog with a bone.

I get "Oh, that's interesting dear" said in the most sarcastic manner, but then I'm not a good boy

-Jam

	23-01-2003 18:19									#27
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My wife merely rolls her eyes at Civ. But recently my younger daughter (5 years old) has decided she likes to sit beside me while I play. I game on my laptop, while she plays one of her games on our desktop. When battles come up, I crank up the sound and Molly turns to watch.
So my wife is a little reconciled to my playing.
The only problem now is, Molly always wants me to play the pink civs!

(Sorry to extend the thread-jack. But this is too fun to resist.)

	23-01-2003 20:34									#28
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Thread-jacking continued . . .

My wife ignores it completely, and will do nothing to encourage me to spend more time in front of the laptop. My 4-year old has learned not to play with the computer, but the toddlers will literally make a mad dash for the laptop the moment I leave it unattended and leave the room. It's actually become a bit of a game -- we leave the room and watch the race for the computer as the 4-year old yells his warnings . . .

Catt

	23-01-2003 20:56									#29
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You bunch of threadjackers! I participated too, so I can't really complain, huh?

[/threadjack]

I hope to get a good number of turns in this weekend. Tom is coming down to visit, so we can play "hotseat" for a while and really get the game moving.

Then what I want to do is provide some screenies, and see what you all think of the situation.

btw, I think I misspoke before: My capitol has SIX bonus grassland, not 5. I think I can get it to 15 shields/turn at size 7. Horsemen or Swordsmen in 2 turns per, baby!

-Arrian

	24-01-2003 08:13									#30
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It's a little unfair, don't you think...

Tom versus Apolyton. :grin: