22-01-2003 01:23									#1
	Discussion: Spies and Espionage - Soon I hope. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So when are we going to consider planting spies in other countries?

Which countries do we want spies in?

When do we want to plant them?

I think as we get into the modern age, it becomes more important to have planted spies. Between the anticipated space race, the need to set back (sabotage) "enemy" production and monitoring AI military (and Nukes), I feel that it becomes necesary to have spies planted for each of our major rivals. I see Greece, India, Japan and the Aztecs as major threats heading into the Modern Age. Rome, Russia, England and the Iroquois are next on the threat list while the remaining ones I feel are not significant enough to require spies, though it can prove to be usefull.

I also believe any plan we come up with must plant spies slowly and carefully. No more than one or two should be planted in any given turn.

Thoughts comments?

	22-01-2003 02:02									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I totally agree. Our first targets should be Japan, Rome (as soon we make peace) India and Greece (the four top).
It's risky and expensive... but worth the price.

Btw, MSS, look at your PM box...

	22-01-2003 02:14									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Aro It's risky and expensive... but worth the price.

Risky... yes very.
expensive, not to plant them, just to use them. But they are well worth the price just for the unit information.

Mss

	22-01-2003 02:15									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If you guys really want the CIA for use in the current war against Germany, Rome, and Japan, I sugest that you guys go pass a bill to use the current Great Leader on either the CIA or else Wall Street.

(I would prefer Wall Street for the current GL, and have the next GL build the CIA)

Last edited by joncnunn on 22-01-2003 at 02:36

	22-01-2003 02:16									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

But only AFTER the next turchat.

	22-01-2003 03:18									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good exmple of teh cart befor the horse. I guess we need the IA to be built first. as that is the case, we should find an appropriate city to build it in.

mss

	22-01-2003 03:18									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

BTW.... I do not believ that there is a real need to rush such an improvment....

Mss

	22-01-2003 03:23									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

YES! Finally the Shadow Service can play a real part in the game, outside of roleplay! Sweet.....

	22-01-2003 03:35									#9
	Support Apolyton

ManicStarSeed, there is no good city to normal build the CIA in at this time that will result in it being normal built before the Modern era begins. (Too many improvements neededing to be built)

That is why I sugested the use of Great Leaders for the Small Wonders.

	22-01-2003 03:58									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn ManicStarSeed, there is no good city to normal build the CIA in at this time that will result in it being normal built before the Modern era begins. (Too many improvements neededing to be built) That is why I sugested the use of Great Leaders for the Small Wonders.

Hmmm....

I am not sure that it is as important to get it up before the modern times (in what..20 turns) as much as it is to find a place to get it going so that we have it before the space race is hot and nukes become an issue...

Mss

	22-01-2003 04:11									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: ManicStarSeed, there is no good city to normal build the CIA in at this time that will result in it being normal built before the Modern era begins. (Too many improvements neededing to be built)

I hate to take on joncnunn like this because he is one of the few people who appear to follow what I post. We tend to be on opposite sides of most issues, and this case is no exception.

Civ3 is a game of balance. We have numerous cities that could build any of the small wonders now available. joncnunn will complain because it slows down his hospital program and pop rush, but realistically we only need to build pop fast enough to say on a 4 turn science program. We can easily defer one or two hospitals for Wall Street and the CIA if we really want to and still do the techs in 4.

So it is simply a matter of priorities. We all need to stop setting priorities based on our past play style and exploit the diversity that the SPDG provides. Try something new. See how it works when tweeked by the combined experience that we have here.

So far, the results have been simply amazing. And it is my hope that the best is yet to come.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	22-01-2003 04:37									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by roadcage .... Civ3 is a game of balance. We have numerous cities that could build any of the small wonders now available. .... We can easily defer one or two hospitals for Wall Street and the CIA if we really want to and still do the techs in 4. So it is simply a matter of priorities. ....

Thanks roadcage, this is my take on it as we have so may cities now, that we can spare two for the build of Wall Street and the CIA.

I do not pretend to know the current build order or priority, but I hope that we can make room for these two small wonders without any rushing.

later

Mss

	22-01-2003 05:34									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hmmm.... using the current GL to build the CIA....

What an amazing idea!

But I wonder where would we build it.

Like I said in the use of this GL thread, build CIA in Apolyton. Bring respectability back to our homeland! (It will get a little thingy after its name on the map )

	22-01-2003 05:39									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

hi ,

well as long as some people start to save for those agents , why not

have a nice day

	22-01-2003 06:25									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Espionage is VERY expensive, especially if we want to do it safely. We'll have to watch our spending, and make sure to make the right decision on where to send our agents....

panag has a good point ( ) about saving for the agents....with the amount of money we will be wanting to spend on rush builds, secret service missions, etc, this will be a term where watching our economy and amount of gold (umm...Lytons) will be very important, although of course I'm sure we all knew that anyways...

SMC Meshelic

	22-01-2003 07:45									#16
	Support Apolyton

After the next few wars, we'll start a new era... the Cold War!
Spies, nukes, ONU...

Back to 60's!

	22-01-2003 10:18									#17
	Tired of ads?

Hmm....we wouldn't have a Soviet Union to oppose (or a U.S.A. depending on where you're from...!).

I wish Civil Wars still occured, like they did in Civ II, can you imagine? If half of Apolyton broke away and seceded....who would lead the other half???

Ah the possibilities....maybe Civ4 should reinstate such things....

	22-01-2003 10:30									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I wish Civil Wars still occured, like they did in Civ II, can you imagine? If half of Apolyton broke away and seceded....who would lead the other half???

Don't you mean original Civilization?

I never saw a civil war in Civ2, though I could have just been EXTREMELY unlucky.

I loved the civil wars in original Civilization, though... they made the game a lot of fun

	22-01-2003 11:11									#19
	Got spare money?

Actually I never played the original, only the second one. And yes, civil war's DO happen in CivII....I agree, they made the game ALOT of fun!

Okay enough of threadjacking MSS's thread...

I agree with Aro's comments near the top: Rome, Japan, India and Greece should be on our top priority for sabotage and spying on....they pose the most threat to us now out of all the other civz, and they are nearest us in power, culture, etc....

	22-01-2003 19:38									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

A place spy mission is not expensive. It is just that it is almost always unsuccessful. I have only been successful when the target civ was commie, or monarch or anarchy. I have 100% failure rate against republic and democracy. And have never been interested in placing a spy within a despot.

The best thing about the cia and placing spies, is that it is a good way to get a democracy to declare war on you.

Come to think of it, that's an powerful arrow in the quiver of the progressive warmonger!

	22-01-2003 19:47									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Come to think of it, that's an powerful arrow in the quiver of the progressive warmonger!

	23-01-2003 00:29									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Espionage is overly expensive for my tastes unless you're ALREADY in a war and need that troop information (which is pretty rare with the stupidity of the AI) or you want to CAUSE A WAR.

In my opinion, given the explicit purpose I usually use spies for (causing wars), allowing the use of spies should only take place if a war resolution with a given civ has already passed.

	23-01-2003 03:26									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Don't you mean original Civilization? I never saw a civil war in Civ2, though I could have just been EXTREMELY unlucky. I loved the civil wars in original Civilization, though... they made the game a lot of fun

hi ,

there are a couple of excellent scenarios here in the database , its great to see a country split in two


, , the government should put 250 a turn aside or so to start saving , spies is the first thing we need , the we can start with missions

have a nice spying day

	23-01-2003 05:01									#24
	Suffering from ads?

panag we've got LOTS of money coming in. Have you checked the save recently? 250 is small-time compared to what we're making now.

	24-01-2003 00:19									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If we have more money than we know what to do with, my DM staff can put it to work rushing buildings.

	24-01-2003 00:50									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

We are making 600+ lytons per turn, correct? I'm pretty sure that's close at least, I haven't check this morning.

joncnunn - certainly you will have plenty of cash on hand to rush projects, in fact I encourage you to do so. Although the economics of our nation is not my forte' , I believe you should have plenty of financial support to rush-build certain projects.

On another note - I will probably be requesting future construction of military units in the coming week, although military production would not take precedence over industry and economy.

A question (and I will check the save too), but as far as you know, what percentage of cities house barracks?

SMC Meshelic

	24-01-2003 01:01									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks to Sun Tzu's Art of War, we have barracks in all our cities in Abananaba. Additionally, we have built two barracks on Uber Isle.

	24-01-2003 01:35									#28
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic panag we've got LOTS of money coming in. Have you checked the save recently? 250 is small-time compared to what we're making now.

Meshelic have you read the message , ....

it proposes to start putting something on the side for espionage , the rest can be used for whatever its needed , like building buildings we need , .....

simple

	24-01-2003 02:38									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by panag Meshelic have you read the message , .... it proposes to start putting something on the side for espionage , the rest can be used for whatever its needed , like building buildings we need , ..... simple

ughh...yet again panag I don't think you understood what I'm trying to say. That's ok though. I don't make sense all the time. In fact I laugh at myself for constantly baffling others, and constantly baffling myself!

I won't even bother trying to continue with this anymore, for fear of probably being misunderstood.

but P.S., yes I read every single post on every single thread I'm interested in. I don't skip anything, anytime, anywhere. just FYI....