22-01-2003 06:00									#1
	Great Library Question Got spare money?

I've searched the manual and forums, but can't seem to find an answer to this question, which may be dumb, but...

When you have the Great Library, do you need to have contact with two other civs with the technology to get the spoils from it? I recently had a game on a pangea, but I didn't know that (since the planet was all 'random'), and I was the lucky one with a good size island to myself, so I was just developing it, without much regard to meeting the rest of the world.

When I did meet the other ten or so civs (all at once since they shared the same supercontinent), I found that I was an also-ran in the tech race, but hadn't gotten a single thing out of the GL (which was, by that time, obsolete).

Just wondering if anyone knows about this.

	22-01-2003 06:45									#2
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Yes, contact with two civs with a given tech will do the trick.

There are some great threads about 'slingshotting' with the GLib, due to the fact that it goes obsolete AFTER you learn techs.

	22-01-2003 12:31									#3
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Just to give you some relief:
At least you kept the GL from the other civs, otherwise one of them would have got the tech bonus (because they DID have contact).

	22-01-2003 18:05									#4
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"Slingshot" example:

When you're isolated and have the GL, the trick is to get communications with EVERY Civ possible on the same turn once you make contact. That way you will learn every single tech that two or more of the other Civs already have.

In my current game, I was on the smaller of two continents with about 8 other Civs. Warring and such had kept our tech progress slowed so that the "local" Civs were all in the early Middle Ages. When contact with the larger continent occurred, I traded resources/luxuries/money/WM so that I got communications with all of the other 15 Civs (yes, I play with 24). Turned out the Civs on the larger continent were just entering the Industrial Age... thanks to the GL, I got every remaining tech for the Middle Ages and was asked which Industrial Age tech I'd like to start on. Yikes! Of course, I upgraded all my knights to cavalry and completely overwhelmed the Civs on my home continent, then switched to Democracy and used my huge number of cities to maintain tech parity with the other continent, and finally gained the lead late in the Industrial Age.

	23-01-2003 06:28									#5
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if you must have contact, how come you can become aware of when a civ completes a great wonder when you/anybody you know doesnt have contact with them?

	23-01-2003 10:16									#6
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Wandering minstrels from distant, mysterious lands bring tales of magnificent feats accomplished by unknown peoples.
At least I think it was wandering minstrels. Maybe it was meandering wastrels, but what the heck?

	25-01-2003 05:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie "Slingshot" example: When you're isolated and have the GL, the trick is to get communications with EVERY Civ possible on the same turn once you make contact. That way you will learn every single tech that two or more of the other Civs already have. In my current game, I was on the smaller of two continents with about 8 other Civs. Warring and such had kept our tech progress slowed so that the "local" Civs were all in the early Middle Ages. When contact with the larger continent occurred, I traded resources/luxuries/money/WM so that I got communications with all of the other 15 Civs (yes, I play with 24). Turned out the Civs on the larger continent were just entering the Industrial Age... thanks to the GL, I got every remaining tech for the Middle Ages and was asked which Industrial Age tech I'd like to start on. Yikes! Of course, I upgraded all my knights to cavalry and completely overwhelmed the Civs on my home continent, then switched to Democracy and used my huge number of cities to maintain tech parity with the other continent, and finally gained the lead late in the Industrial Age.

sorry, that can't be. the effect of the great library expires with education. so you can't have got to the end of the medieval ages (after education comes banking, astronomy, etc.)

	25-01-2003 06:19									#8
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sabrewolf,
Yes it CAN be. IF all that knowledge came at ONCE. That's where the "slingshot" is involved, because you were slung way PAST Education.

(Yes, I would also prefer not to have been that far behind)

	25-01-2003 06:23									#9
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ah, sorry, my bad

	25-01-2003 06:37									#10
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Wow, Stuie. That's highly cool. Has anyone tried staying behind in tech for ages, diverting money to other things, whilst having the GL, and then contacting the other civs to catch up most of the way without doing a jot of research yourself? It could be tricky, as they could find you at any time, but if you were on a two continent world or Archipelago world, you could put it off a long time before they found you.

And does contact mean simply being able to talk to them, ie moving next to their borders/units/cities? Or is "contact" established after you first accept their emissary.

	25-01-2003 07:59									#11
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1. There have been some amazing slingshot examples reported... 15 techs, or the like.

2. I think 'contact' is just knowing another civ, i.e., they are able to appear in your F4 screen.

	25-01-2003 18:33									#12
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oh, i'll try this on a map. get a nice big continent all for yourself, bealine to literature, get great library and wait until the AI discovers you after magnetism... you'll have enough money to upgrade all your units

the problem: you'll be way behind in city improvements (courthouses, marketplaces, cathedrals) and you won't get any late ancient age and no medieval age wonders... but maybe it's worth it...

	25-01-2003 21:26									#13
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But one civ contacting you is enough to spoil this cool plan and turn to dust your hopes to dominate

	25-01-2003 22:21									#14
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iirc you only get techs known to at least 2 civs...

	25-01-2003 22:39									#15
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I dont like slingshotting because you can end way behind in infrastructure, such as finishing cathedrals in your cities when other civs are starting factories.

	26-01-2003 21:24									#16
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I have found slingshotting useful in deity games, where you very easily fall behind. And slingshoting works even better if you capture the GL. No drawbacks, only benefits.

	26-01-2003 21:27									#17
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i don't think it's easy to capture the GL if you're far behind in techs. will catapults and knights you can't really pass that barrier of riflemen or infantry...

	26-01-2003 22:26									#18
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Give me enough Knights...

	26-01-2003 22:42									#19
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Once I captured a greek GL with knights when all my opponents were already building their first tanks

	27-01-2003 20:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit But one civ contacting you is enough to spoil this cool plan and turn to dust your hopes to dominate

Definitely. That's why you need to do whatever it takes to gain communcations with all the other Civs at the moment you meet one of them.

As for how far behind you can be and still recover, I was lucky in that the other continent's Civs had just reached the Industrial Age. If they had been much further ahead, I'm not sure any sort of slingshot effect could have helped me. As it was, they had just finished the Middle Age techs (I was even able to rush Adam Smith's with a leader I had available), so my infrastructure wasn't too far behind (Cathedrals, Banks and Universities were the only buildings I lacked). With the money gained through trading my various luxury monopolies and a switch to Democracy, I was easily able to rush the missing buildings in my most important cities while overwhelming my neighbors on my home continent with newly upgraded Cavalry. The war at home brought in a steady supply of leaders, so in the end I was able get ALL of the Industrial and Modern Age wonders.

	29-01-2003 21:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit But one civ contacting you is enough to spoil this cool plan and turn to dust your hopes to dominate

Only if you make a trade for education would his be a problem, as the GL becomes obsolete only when you discover it. Also they usually know at least one more civ with the apropriate techs so trade for as many communications as you can on the turn you meet the new civ.

	29-01-2003 23:28									#22
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I thought the wonder becomes obselete if ANY civs found education?

Thats why if somebody has GL I would beeline straight to education to make it obselete right away.

	30-01-2003 00:56									#23
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Not so. It becomes obsolete at the beginning of the turn after the owning player discovers Education.

	30-01-2003 04:35									#24
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I wasn't aware of this, I always thought the GL went obsolete once any civ discovered Education.

What I used to do (and will still do since I don't like to fall that behind) is take the low road, researching into Invention, Gunpowder, Metallurgy, Military Tradition while the AI goes towards education. I usually get to Mil. Tradition before the AI discovers Education but by then I also have those techs thanks to the GL and end up with a HUGE military advantage since the AI has not yet got the above mentioned techs.

	30-01-2003 04:46									#25
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i always go for monotheism and theology first (except if in need of immediate defence). so the completely other route of which you take
cathedrals are very important when cities get bigger and the sistine chapel is one of my favorite wonders of all.

	30-01-2003 07:51									#26
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I like the sistine chapel too, what I do is start accumulating shields in one non-capital city (building the Palace) so that by the time I get theology thru the GL, I can build the chapel in less than 10 turns.

By going the low road you are also most likely to get Leonardo's Workshop, another must-have IMO.

After getting education I top it off with Magellan's Expedition, one of my favorite wonders and that's pretty much it for the middle ages.

	30-01-2003 21:24									#27
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I just tried it last night. It's true the wonder becomes obselete after the wonder owner discovers education..

Bah.. Next time I'll make sure they do discover education by trading it, ending their free trip down the tech tree early.

	31-01-2003 02:03									#28
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The other expiring wonders in Civ III work the same way.

(Gift your soon to be oppoenent with the Great Wall Metalurgy to collapse that wall!)

Last edited by joncnunn on 31-01-2003 at 02:21

	04-02-2003 05:32									#29
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Just another point about the GL that I found interesting: The civ w/ the GL doesn't learn the new tech until the turn AFTER it is learned.

In one game I was able to out research the civ w/ the GL (at least to some techs) and I was able to sell the tech to them! (If they just would have waited 1 turn they would have gotten it for free via the GL.) Come to think of it, that could have been considered an 'exploit'. Oh well....

	04-02-2003 05:53									#30
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They ought to add to a Wonder that comes after the GL, like making Leonardo's Workshop have the feature of giving you the same thing that the GL did. Of course, the GL ought to have a higher culture rating, but then so should Leonardo's (so many years later, and we still talk about the guy). Or maybe we could give that feature to the Internet, but by then you'd be caught up with everybody anyway.