22-01-2003 08:14									#1
	Technology "Think Tank" Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is where we will discuss various technologies for Stella Polaris! This thread will be the think tank and all techs agreed on will be added to a new list of techs. The old one is only a rough draft.
-J.B.-

	23-01-2003 06:55									#2
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Ok so is the technology list good? They are the catagories that the techs go under.
-J.B.-

	23-01-2003 12:00									#3
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I think that much more interesting question is "How these techs are obtained?". By now, we have a "plenty" of options, for example
- tech tree (like Civs or Acsendancy, for example)
- tech fields (like Stars!)
- hybrid or custom schemes
While my opinion may appear a bit offtopic at first glance, you may figure out that the answer may lead to more or less detailed tech subdivision. For example, tech fields means a broad range of mutualy independent "inventions" tied to specific tech levels. Tech trees are completerly another story.

	23-01-2003 15:37									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

OK, here are some thoughts about most exciting discoveries of the future
- Nuclear fusion -> Lots of energy, space prop, compact weapon warheads(?), fusion-pumped lasers(?), climate control(?), terraforming(?)
- Nanotechnology -> Cure for anything, nano-repair systems, nano-production systems, bio-like weapons, espionage, gene control, cell control, terraforming(?)
- Advanced genetics -> bio-adaptation, food production, bio-weapons, environmental control, terraforming(?), controlled evolution
- AI -> Total control systems (environment, production, human), automatic research and developnent, too clever weapons, ultimate information "mining", AI judges

	24-01-2003 10:18									#5
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Well I thought we were going more to Tech Trees. The science catagories listed will be the catagories that have the science under them like physics would have nuclear science under it. Etc.
-J.B.-

	24-01-2003 13:48									#6
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OK, then you may rely on me for the physics / high energy physics (I hope you didn't forget about it, do you?), and to somewhat lesser extent physics in general if you actualy need some technical details.

	24-01-2003 19:55									#7
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I did not forget my physics. Also I read up on theoretical physics as a hobbie. Now I want to know if the catagories are good so we can start making the techs that go under it. Then we will finally have a working tech tree or whatever when we start to code.
-J.B.-

	24-01-2003 21:31									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Haven't there been (long) lists of technologies on the forum before?

I still suggest the sphere-grid. I suggested it before. Basically it's just a version of the tech-tree. If you've played Final Fantasy 10 you know what I mean.

	24-01-2003 21:40									#9
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quote: Haven't there been (long) lists of technologies on the forum before?

Yes there has been a long list by Jmaster. I'm only trying to put them into neat catagories that Jmaster started. We will then sort the techs into the appropriate catagories making a tech tree after that.
-J.B.-

	24-01-2003 23:12									#10
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I'd like to hear more about this "sphere-grid" idea.

	25-01-2003 01:17									#11
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To quote myself:

quote: And about the catagorization, if this much technologies and knowledge really are gonna be in the game, I think it would be really cool to make some kind of sphere grid (like in Final Fantasy 10). For those that don't know final fantasy 10, I'll explain. In FFX there's a whole different kind of lvl system. If you gain a lvl you can move your 'character' over a grid you can acces from the menu. It's huge and you can scroll through it to see the whole thing (and zoom in/out). You can place spheres you can find in the game in nodes that then teach you a new ability, or raise your HP with 200, for example. This idea could be used for StP. A grid with ALL technologies in it. No catagorization. (well, off course, they need to be placed correctly. Diamont Plating must come some time after The Wheel. ) But instead of lvls, you'd need money and the technology that comes before it. And you could make it so it'll take some time before the technology is ready. You could choose your own path over the grid. You wouldn't need to learn ALL of it, you can choose one of the paths. (The beginning could only be one path, but after about 20 basic techs, the path could split up and give the player a choice.)

	25-01-2003 01:21									#12
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I think we should do it al la Civ way and have a tech tree. Its easier to make and its more familar to us. Or at least to me. Shall we vote.
-J.B.-

	26-01-2003 11:18									#13
	Tech tree design ideas... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here's my ideas for design for whatever they're worth.

Have any number of tech categories. Let's call them Category 1, Category 2 etc. One might be movement, another shields, another size and so on.
Each category has a tech level. The basic cost of each tech level in each category is the level number squared. So level 1 is 1, 2 is 4, 3 is 9 etc.
On top of this, there is a penalty cost for focusing on one category over another. So, for each tech level above nearest tech level from another category, there is a multiplier of the difference.

For instance:

For simplicity's sake, let's say there are 3 categories - movement, size, and shields. Each starts at tech level 0.

First you research Movement level 1. This costs 1.
Then you research Size level 1. This also costs you 1.
Then you research Movement level 2. This costs you 2x2=4. No penalty as nearest tech level is level 1. 2-1=1 and a 1 multiplier has no effect.
Then you research Size level 2. The basic cost is 2x2=4. But there is also a penalty as the next lowest tech is Shields at level 0. This is 2-0=2 so the final cost is 2x2x2=8.
Then you research Size level 3. The basic cost is 3x3=9. There is no penalty here as the nearest tech level is Movement at 2.
Next you research Movement level 3. The basic cost is 3x3=9. Plus a penalty multiplier of 3. So the cost is 27.
Next you research Shields level 1. The basic cost is 1.

And so on. Now, you might well think that the best thing to do is to keep researching evenly overall but here's the trick. There will be a number of discoveries that require a certain range or certain exact tech levels from different categories or they will not be discovered - that is to say, they will be missed out on. Add to that a randomization of what those categories are, and you can have some quite complicated choices to make.

For example, there might be a certain advancement that is discovered if movement tech is at 7 to 9 and shields level is at 11 to 13 only. If you research matches that criteria at any point, then you have discovered that advance. However, if you were researching over different categories evenly, then you would miss out on that advance completely. All the various advance criterias can be set up in such a way that it is impossible to discover all of them as some will be in blatant contradiction to others.

There are also alternative research cost formula ideas. You might want the basic cost, instead of the tech squared, to be the turn number (is the game TBS?) multiplied by the tech level however the cost of techs would soar. But researching techs that increase the tech research points per turn would offset that. Also, the penalty cost mulitplier could be based on the number of turns a category has been neglected. If you have a game system that only focuses on one research category at a time, this would make neglected categories become increasingly more expensive.

Tech research should never end. You should always be able to research more but at a continually increased cost.

	26-01-2003 14:52									#14
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quote: Tech research should never end. You should always be able to research more but at a continually increased cost.

you mean like future techs in civ and trancendence thought in SMAC?

	26-01-2003 17:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Mark123jansen you mean like future techs in civ and trancendence thought in SMAC?

No, that's boring. I mean you can always discover new things or at least keep expanding on what you have.

You can always keep improving on firepower, shields, size, movement etc. Why does it ever have to end? And you can have thousands of surprise advances of which only a small portion are ever discovered in one game. It could be in a database that you could always keep adding to in development/upgrades/patches. So while you keep researching, you could always discover something else completely new, even new research categories.

	27-01-2003 08:58									#16
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Of course, having a static cost for technology can be boring too. Instead, the figures could be used to calculate a percentage probability per RP (meaning research point, whatever a research point is deemed to be).

For instance, if the cost using one of the formulas above had been 4, then divide it into the RP to get the percentage proabaility of discovery each turn. So in this case 1/4=25% probability per turn if only 1 RP., 50% is 2, etc. Can never be more than 100% (obviously). May even want to create an upper limit of (say) 90% so that there is always an element of uncertainty.

However, it may be an idea to create a formula of diminishing returns for increased RPs. The more you sink in, the less increase in probability. In the above example, upping it from 1 to 2RPs may only take the probability from 25% up to 40% for instance.

You may also want to increase the probability slighty for each turn that the tech is not discovered, otherwise it may go on ad infinitum, not discovering anything if the percentage is very low.